Rant And Rave Page

This part is a subsection of the "Karen's Last Days" page (karenmlastdays.html).  Most of this stuff I feel falls under the 'tabloid' type journalism and is very subjective and many times can be made into something that is very misleading if certain pieces of information are left out or not mentioned.  I had the privilege of being around Karen without having outside interference from September 6, 1978 to June 22, 1979 and June 12 to 20, 1981 as well as a long phone call (over a half hour) on February 3, 1983.  I also had a visit from Richard on February 4, 1983 as well.  But this stuff covered on this page is very subjective (subject to speculation, opinionated) and more on a personal level than the objective (matter of fact) stuff mentioned on the "Karen's Last Days" page.  That was why I separated this stuff from the other page as most of this stuff really is "none of your business" type stuff but since others (fiction film producers, fiction authors) brought this stuff up, I figured it would be a good idea to address this 'tabloid' type junk being spread around on this separate page without tainting the other objective (matter of fact) type page.  Fiction authors tend to gravitate towards subjective material (tabloid type material that is very speculative and difficult to prove or disprove, many times disproven, very opinionated) while most non fiction writers try to gravitate towards objective material (reference material that can be proven or disproven, mostly proven, factual).  Yes, this page is a decent attempt to look at subjective material from an objective viewpoint.  So without further ado...

Objectively, Karen had a short life line on her hand that went about an inch or so to about the top of her thumb.  Karen and me didn't really believe in that stuff but still I feel it bears noting.  So noted, I have never met someone with a short life line that lived a long life.  Also noted that I have met those born without hands that still live.  Yes, most times you have to have a disagreement with yourself before you can learn something different.  And sooner or later in a disagreement with yourself, someone has to lose that disagreement. 

From Karen to me in October / November 1978.  Karen had a school physical done before she was allowed into marching band.  During the school physical, the doctor told Karen that she had an irregular heartbeat but if he marked it on her physical, it would have disqualified Karen from joining marching band (1964? at age 14).  Unfortunately, neither Karen nor the physician are around anymore to verify this.  But in 1975, Karen's arrhythmia surfaced again and again in 1977 and 1979 and 1982 and 1983 and possibly other times too.  So this is technically subjective I guess.  Objectively, Karen hadn't started dieting or such until she was 16 or 17.  Even more objectively, Karen's arrhythmia was almost positively caused by Karen being born early (premature).  The only subjective part was possibly other things (like dieting and such) possibly aggravating her arrhythmia at times.  Karen's heart just would not beat steady.

From doctors, doctors have stated to me that from the information contained in Karen's toxicology report, that with the amount of glucol in Karen's system that Karen's passing away was quick and painless.  Glucol relaxes the muscles and nerves.  From that information I wish to try and address Frenda Franklin's comment of Frenda saying that Karen said she was having a chest pain over the phone.  First, if you hear someone say over the phone that they are having a chest pain, wouldn't you ask them to get it checked out?  Did Karen actually say something or just grunt?  Next, from the fact that Karen had a shrimp salad and tacos for dinner, beef and shell fish, which with that combination, most people would develop internal gas and possible heartburn or such.  Also, after someone passes away suddenly and unexpectedly, shock usually happens to those who knew them.  With that shock, many times memories may become not quite as accurate as they were before.  After Karen passed away there was this big rush publicly to "find answers" and when things are rushed, inaccuracies and such many times result.  Frenda has commented that she said that Karen had a chest pain.  But then you don't hear Frenda saying back "go get checked out" or "Would you like me to call an ambulance?" or such.  Also, I do not recall anything written about Karen replying about this chest pain like "It's just gas" or "My lung was punctured" or even "It's nothing" or such.  Just left hanging.  Karen's lung had also been punctured during the procedure at Lennox Hill in late September 1982.  The medical evidence indicates that Karen's passing away would be painless and possible dizziness, disorientation or a slight headache but not cause chest pains or such.  It does kind of add up though as it was more than likely that Karen had probably developed gas from the beef and fish which that gas would build up in the lungs in the chest which could have possibly irritated the lung puncture or such.  But also with a heart attack type chest pain there would have been evidence of a coronary or angina or such and there was nothing found to indicate a coronary or such.  No damaged heart valves or blockages or such noted.  There was edema (fluid in the lungs) but that fluid was apparently not tested and there was not a notation as to how much or what kind of fluid in the lung(s).  Each lung weighs 450 grams and mention of a frothy pink fluid as well as the coloration of the lungs (The right lung weighs 450 grams and the left lung weighs 450 grams. The surfaces are redish-pink and moist. The consistency is soft and doughy. The cut surface is dark red in the lower lobes and pale grayish-pink in the upper lobes. Frothy pink fluid is present on the cut surfaces. No focal alterations are seen and no evidence of aspiration, pneumonia or tumor is seen grossly) and to try and explain here.  While breathing, there is fluid in the lungs that collect the oxygen and transfer it to the blood stream.  When a person passes away and the heart stops beating, the fluid stops circulating and collects in the lungs.  As noted there is not a presence of excess fluid (pneumonia).  Normal lung weights are right lung mean weight, 340 g (range, 142-835 g); left lung mean, 299 g (range, 108-736 g).  Note that both of Karen's lungs weigh the same which is 'abnormal' however 450 grams appears to be within the normal range so 'edema' (swelling) does not actually appear to be supported here outside of both lungs weighing the same possibly.  Singer's lungs are normally larger than normal lungs.  This is a great example about 'objective vs. subjective', as it is likely that Karen could have mentioned a chest pain, but to try and say that indicated a heart problem is subjective.  And after the autopsy report, Karen did not have a coronary or such.  After other examinations, Karen had beef and fish, so most likely there had been a build up of gas in her lungs possibly.  Also, it seems like there should have been more to that conversation other than Karen saying (or just grunting without saying?) she had a chest pain which is why I mentioned shock here as well.  You would think someone would ask someone else to get checked out or such, so probably Karen's comment to Frenda didn't stand out enough or like I said with shock after Karen passed away the next day.  And also to note here, people should be allowed to say what they feel they need to say.  And sometimes information  may be incomplete and such too.  Sometimes a writer may also miss something like clarification and such as well.  "the reading lines" or "reading between the lines" as it is known as with everything written, it is written in a line with spaces in between those lines.  Reading between the lines is a saying about looking for what may be missing instead of assuming that everything is always included in what is written.  But objective is straight forward whereas subjective is not.  Frenda said what she felt she needed to say but others have taken things Frenda has said out of context.  If Frenda had not spoken about a chest pain then what I have written here wouldn't have been written.  And in my own defense here at about 5:20 PM Pacific Time on February 3, 1983 during Karen and my phone call, Karen had made a grunt noise over the phone.  Then Karen said, "Mush, your nose is cold."  Objectively, Karen's heart stopped and Karen passed away.  Also, objectively, as the autopsy reveals, Karen actually did not have a heart attack before she passed away peacefully.

Also from doctors, fibro myalgia and cystic fibrosis and other 'fibro' type diagnoses have all been found from those that were born premature or a genetic defect and appear to be problems associated with a child being born prematurely and / or with a genetic defect.  Cells (fibros) do not develop normally from birth and can be problematic as a child grows older.  There are also studies that have been done to try and link certain genetic strains to certain problems.  There does not appear to be any genetic link with any chemical (outside the chemicals of ASTC, the groundwork chemicals for genetics and DNA), but in every case, the person was born premature or with a genetic defect.  Many studies have been done but as of yet, there still does not appear to be any cases (outside of cancer cells) where an abnormal cell development (fibro / fibrosis) appears to happen outside of a person being born abnormally (premature or genetic defect).  It is a bit of a stretch for someone to believe that a cell structure problem could be caused by a chemical that does not alter cell structures or replications thereof.  Well, actually, impossible.  Yes, it is impossible for a chemical that does not alter cell structures or replications thereof to alter cell structures or replications thereof.  No duh.  It takes a lot of duh to sit there and say Emetine, which is a chemical that irritates the stomach and does not alter cell structures or replications thereof, alters cell structures and / or replications thereof.  A truth is still a truth whether believed or not.  Dunce caps anyone?  Thinking caps?  Hair peace?  Brain peace.  THINKE (Take Heart In Not Knowing Everything).  Relax.  Wait, um, Frankie went to Hollywood, right?  Really?  Don't do it.  Just don't.  Don't.  But this part is here on the subjective page as I do not remember for sure if Fibro Myalgia was actually mentioned on Karen's full autopsy or not.  If it was mentioned in the autopsy then this paragraph would belong on the "Karen's Last Days" page with the other objective information.

As far as colitis...  Karen was actually diagnosed with colitis several times but not treated for it that I remember.  Having colitis was the main reason behind the procedure at Lennox Hill Hospital.  Karen had been having trouble trying to digest solid foods for quite a while (since 1975).  But it wasn't an excuse for Karen to not talk about anorexia.  Back in 1975 they really didn't have a term for anorexia anyway.  Karen did actually have and was diagnosed with colitis.  But the main concern found in 1975 wasn't the colitis but Karen's arrhythmia (irregular heartbeat).  The arrhythmia was what was hidden in 1975, not anorexia.  And after a couple more trips to hospitals, Karen was tired of them trying to always put a pacemaker in her.  Colitis, arrhythmia, hyperglycemia, hepatitis and... it just isn't that simple.  But there is money to be made by those with college degrees.  As you'll read here shortly, the therapeutic, psychiatric and psychologic communities aren't any better now than they were back then.  The main reason for that lack of improvement is something known as profiling.

And as far as the 'control' issues...  Karen was not controlled by her family (after she was old enough as parents are still responsible for minors that are under aged).  Karen's parents had always been supportive of both Karen and Richard.  For the record here, from Karen, herself, to me, Karen had so many wonderful experiences with her family (mom, dad and brother and cousin Joanie).  Karen was always happiest around her family.  Karen's family knew Karen as being Karen and not some big celebrity or such.  That meant a lot to Karen.  Karen enjoyed being herself and she could always be herself around her family.  Karen and her mom were also very close and shared many secrets together.  Karen and her mom were very family oriented and very athletic as well.  Karen and her mom also loved trying to solve personal problems.  Richard and his dad were a lot alike as well and both very laid back type people.  Neither Karen nor Richard ever expected themselves to be pop stars or celebrities or such.  On the road to superstardom (or whatever it is), Karen and Richard shared many wonderful, fairy tale type experiences together.  Karen and Richard were always very close and always looked after each other.  And yes, while mom (the cat) was away, the children (the mice) must play so to speak.  And as their mom would say, "You kids can't pull the wool over my eyes".  But yes, Karen and Richard would each sneak off in their own directions and 'look for love' and that other kind of awkward around your parents type stuff and then try and hide it from their mom.  Typical kids even into their 30s.  Many times, Karen and Richard were all that they had while dealing with all that superstar type stuff.  Because Karen and Richard always worked together (as equals), they had their routines and they could many times not even have to talk and they knew what each other was thinking.  Karen was never going to find that elsewhere nor give that up.  Karen was not really controlled or forced into things by her family.  For another record, when the time came, Karen knew that she would have to take front stage as the 'big problem' that was said by audiences was "where's that voice coming from?".  Karen did love it behind the drums, but she knew that she had to move out front for the fans (not for Richard or such).  So no, Karen never felt controlled or such by her family (or the fans either).  Karen understood where the fans were coming from as if Karen had been in the audience too, she would have wondered who was singing as well.  So Karen agreed to take front stage not really because others asked her to take front stage, but because she felt if she was in the audience watching the show too that she would want to see who was singing also.  But also, Karen had always sang and played drums together.  It took a little while for Karen to adjust to not playing the drums.  And a personal note here but please try not to take this out of context.  In January 1973, Karen, Richard, dad and cousin Mark Rudolph were riding motorcycles together.  They were all riding on the policed 'public' path and Karen decided to take off on her own on a private 'unpoliced' path.  Richard noticed a couple riders heading straight for Karen and Richard intercepted and got between the other riders and Karen and from the accident, Richard had a broken leg, a broken wrist and a sprained wrist and was in casts on his leg and both wrists after the accident.  Richard had put himself in harm's way to protect Karen and in private Karen would always say how proud she was of her brother and how brave Richard was.  After the accident, Richard had started taking pain pills and with that, Karen had always kind of blamed herself for Richard having the quaalude addiction that developed later on.  Richard never lorded over Karen about that stuff and never blamed Karen for his addiction either, just as Karen never blamed her family for her anorexia either.  And they were both right too.  Richard's pill addiction was his own fault as Karen's anorexia was her own fault also.  Richard and Karen (and me too) were both INFJ-A types and had an internal set of rules unique to personal life experiences and not based on outside influences.  Internal, not external.  Any changes had to take place internally not because of others (external).  But there was not any control issues between Karen and anyone in her family.  Karen's mom could be overprotective at times, but that was just mom being herself and knowing how her daughter (while dragging her brother along) had a penchant for being mischievous at times and finding 'trouble'.  And something to think about here.  Richard and Karen were many times out doing a tour or in the recording studio so, um, kind of wondering where this time came from where Richard and Karen were able to be controlled by their mom (hint, usually if mom went on tour with them, dad went too).  In the beginning Karen was under 21 which was a different story, but with the busy tour schedule and TV appearances and recording and such, it just doesn't make sense to me that Richard and Karen had enough time left over to allow their mom to control them with everything else that was going on.  And before the fame and such, mom worked (at the same place as a lady named Evelyn Wallace).  OK, shameless plug here for  "Carpenters - The Musical Legacy" book by Mike Cidoni Lennox and Chris May with Richard Carpenter for an awesome reference on how busy Richard and Karen were at times.  With a business manager and all that going on that "mom is controlling" mantra seems about as possible as that threading a camel through the eye of a needle thing to me.  How about you?

As far as control though...  In 1978 I saw a big problem with a guy named Max Baer Jr that was looking to control Karen as Max had a girlfriend at the time, but Max wanted to be like a big Hollywood type and have a girl on the side too.  Well, Karen didn't want to be that 'other woman'.  So, Max tried to control Karen and Karen had problems.  After a while, Karen had enough of that mess and so John Heib, Max's uncle Buddy Baer?, Buddy Ebsen, Richard and the guy writing this backed Max into a corner and made it clear to Max that Max was to leave Karen alone (which Max did after the confrontation).  But Karen called Richard and Richard was on the next available flight to New York State and afterwards, Richard left the next morning after making sure Karen was going to be all right.  Steven Levenkron also tried to control Karen as well which Karen escaped to Lennox Hill then back home.  Before Steven, oh yes, Karen's solo album and Phil and Itchie Ramone (Karen Kamon in the Flashdance movie credits).  First, Richard and mom only ever encouraged Karen during her solo album.  Richard and mom were NEVER against Karen doing that album nor were Alpert or Moss (A&M).  I do not know for sure, but I am fairly sure that mom never knew that Karen ever did a solo album.  Mom had told Karen privately in either late March or early April 1979 that Richard had started seeing Mary Rudolph which was why Richard wanted time off.  Richard had also asked Karen to do that album as well because record sales had been slumping and maybe Karen could learn a few tricks from Phil on the production end.  For reference, the three tricks were that Phil liked to personalize songs with 'pet names' like Baby and Dear and such to make the song seem more personal to the listener, Phil also used what I believe they call a 'digitizer' to alter the voice at times, and one they couldn't use of Phil liked dragging his artists' names through the tabloids to try and gain free publicity for the artist before a release.  Note, tabloids do not want 'girl next door' and 'boy next door' type articles, so no, no tabloid press.  And another note as far as the other two, Richard and Karen had both toyed around with altering the voice through electronic means (Calling Occupants and a few other songs) as well as using 'pet names' too.  So there really wasn't anything there to be learned by Karen and Richard that they hadn't already thought about before Phil Ramone and the solo album.  Richard also challenged Karen by telling Karen that her voice couldn't do disco.  And anyone that knows Karen knows that if you try to tell her that she isn't able to do something, she's going to find a way to do it.  Karen was actually living with her step cousin Wendy in New York State at the time of her solo album and Karen wanted time off too.  But after mom told Karen about Richard seeing Mary and Richard talking Karen into it, Karen agreed to try doing a solo album.  And the original producer thought of was Eddie Kramer who was the one who recommended Phil Ramone to Karen in late March or early April 1979.  Unfortunately Rod Temperton passed away, but Phil and Itchie were very controlling of Karen during her solo album.  Rod and Karen had a private joke between them of Phil having the nickname 'A**hole' and Itchie being 'Snitchy' and Phil's house as being 'the Compound' and Phil and Itchie being 'the Gestapo'.  Karen and Rod's joke between them was "Let's make a break for it" whenever Phil and Itchie weren't directly there.  Karen and Rod were also 'prisoners' so Rod's nickname was "Number Two" because he got pooped on and Karen's nickname was "Number One" as she got p*ssed on.  Karen was not allowed out of sight of Phil, Itchie or Rod during her solo album.  That's control.  Also, Phil had a bad reputation of not being able to keep a steady clientele and Karen wasn't going to tell Phil this, but Karen felt that Phil had Karen do certain songs to possibly try and get Karen to violate her 'image clause' in her recording contract (and try and force Karen to keep Phil as her producer and go to another label after getting Karen fired/released from A&M).  I remember Karen telling me that Phil said that trying to get "Rock with You" passed A&M's standards would have been like trying to sell the Hindenburg while also telling Karen that "My Body Keeps Changing My Mind" was OK.  Really?  "Rock with You" is playful and not outright sexual like "My Body Keeps Changing My Mind" but that was the level of nonsense (hogwarsh, poppycock, BS) that Karen kept telling me that she kept getting from Phil F***ing Ramone (Phil called himself Phil F***ing Ramone several times during the 100K extra meeting in June 1979 between Karen, Phil, Itchie, Itchie's toy poodle and me with Rod Temperton leaving the room and yes, a very long story here that I am trying to avoid, so...).  Rod Temperton wanted Karen to have "Rock with You" and "Off the Wall" as well but Rod was hired by Phil Ramone and if Rod wanted a paycheck then Rod needed to do what Phil F***ing Ramone wanted Rod to f***ing do and "shut the f*** up about it".  That was a major consideration and a big reason as to why Karen didn't release her solo album.  Karen was very much against women being seen as just 'sex objects' for men to ogle over.  "My Body Keeps Changing My Mind" is not a 'girl next door' type song by any stretch of the imagination as well as a few other 'sex oriented' type songs.  During our talk on June 12, 1981 Karen had told me that she had thought about changing a song lyric from "My Body Keeps Changing My Mind" to "Your Swagger Keeps Changing My Mind" but she wanted to get Richard and John Bettis's and possibly others too opinions first about it.  A big problem from March 1980 to May 1980 for Karen was that there was a big rush to get the solo album out and it was like a whirlwind and with that, Karen was the one who put on the brakes as stuff wasn't making sense to her.  Karen killed the solo album at about one minute to midnight after the mad rush from May 1979 to May 1980.  Karen was not looking to change her 'girl next door' public image but she was tired of the 'squeaky clean' stuff.  Phil was behind that changing her girl next door image stuff.  The can of worms was left in the can by Karen, herself, and not forced into that can by anyone else but Karen.  Karen did not want to be seen as the sleaze bucket next door that was just another notch in some slime ball's belt.  Karen had worked hard on giving women the image of being something more than just sex objects and she definitely did not want to lose that image for herself or others by releasing that solo album.  And if people didn't notice, after Karen passed away, the powers that be ran amok over Karen's wholesome image for women.  Note also, that Karen, Richard and A&M Records (through a future Carpenters, not just Karen Carpenter, royalty deal) had paid for that solo album, yet the tapes remained in Phil Ramone's hands.  Yes, Karen was worried that Phil would sneak off and release that solo album behind Karen's back without her permission.  Yes, Karen felt caught between a rock and a hard place with Phil and Itchie.  Friendship?  BFF?  Not hardly.  A mess, yes.  Hey, that rhymes.  And yes, Karen thought of A&M Records as like being a part of her family too.  A&M had always stuck by Karen and Richard and allowed Karen and Richard to be themselves instead of just a 'product' to make money from the masses.  And yes, Thomas Burris also tried many times to control Karen as well.  But no, Karen's family never controlled Karen and Karen always felt safe with her family (mom, dad and brother).  Karen did not feel safe with the likes of Steven Levenkron, Phil and Itchie Ramone, Max Baer Jr, Thomas Burris or a few others.  Karen never felt safe around 'control freaks' and her family was not controlling her.  Honestly, the family let Karen have her freedom or else Karen would never had met certain people that she met.  During Karen and the Levenkron Clinic from January 1982 to September 1982, Karen and her family talked together by phone, but Karen was left on her own and Karen knew that all she had to do was ask and her family would be right there (which Karen asked after going into Lennox Hill and then asked afterwards to be left alone again so the family went back home).  From September 1978 to June 1979, I saw Karen and she wasn't being controlled by her family (but Max was being controlling for sure).  If Karen didn't want to do a song with the Carpenters, it wasn't done.  Richard kept trying to get the group on TV and away from the touring, but Karen liked touring.  Karen had her money and such and could do what she wanted and live where she wanted which was why she tried to live close to her family where she felt safe from those like Max, Phil, Itchie, Steven and Thomas (and a few others too).  But honestly, NO, Karen never felt controlled by her family.  YES, many of those claiming that Karen's family was controlling are the ones that were actually the ones trying to unsuccessfully control Karen for a reference here.  Do you see that smoke screen by others now?  I did not know Karen to have control problems with her family and her family was the ones protecting her from the ones like Max, Phil, Itchie, Steven and Thomas from controlling Karen.  Blood is thicker than money grubbers and fame mongerers and control freaks thank heavens.  Karen was always proud to be a Carpenter and a part of the Carpenter family.  The Burris family wasn't a bad family either, but unfortunately, Thomas wasn't going to be much of a family man for Karen or the Carpenters (or the Burris's either) after having a vasectomy.

And, er, um, to try and finish this control stuff here, the story of Karen getting her own condo around 1976 I believe it was.  Karen told me that she had people around her that had been talking about Karen being almost in her 30s and still living at home.  It wasn't really Karen as Karen was fine with that as her and Richard were on the road most of the time and Karen didn't feel like she really needed her own place anyway.  But people talk and a few times Karen heard the words "old maid" and "spinster" which were not words that Karen liked hearing from others.  So Karen first asked Ev Wallace if Ev would help Karen out and kind of mention that Karen was getting older and probably ought to have a place of her own to her mom (Agnes).  Karen was figuring if it came from someone else (a family friend, Ev) that her mom might understand better what Karen was planning (whether her mom, Agnes, approved or not).  So Ev mentioned it and it was one of those oops moments I guess you could say as it wasn't so much the Karen moving out stuff, but more the fact that Karen didn't go to her mom directly about it.  Agnes, mom, had always told Karen that if Karen had a problem that all she had to do was say so and mom and Karen would sit at the kitchen table and discuss it.  But Karen told me that it was more that Karen didn't ask directly than anything else.  Karen got her condo in I believe 1976 and her mom wasn't upset that Karen was moving out so much as that Karen didn't talk directly with her mom about it which kind of hurt her mom as her mom had always told Karen that all Karen had to do was say something if Karen was having a problem and Karen's mom would always be willing to talk about it with Karen.  It was more about an issue with trust with her mom on that and not really about Karen moving out or such.  Karen had told me that her mom had actually been kind of waiting for "that talk" from Karen for a while about how Karen was getting older and a place of her own and such.  Agnes (mom) did NOT want to have that kind of talk with her friend, Ev, as Karen was the one that needed to talk anyway and why get someone else involved in it if it wasn't needed.  So Agnes (mom) finally got to have that 'responsibility' talk with her daughter and to start it out how it was irresponsible of Karen to try and use Ev as a buffer as if someone's going to get their own place they shouldn't be sneaking around and should be more upfront and responsible about it.  If Karen hadn't involved Ev in it, Agnes (mom) wouldn't have had to throw in a lecture on top of the responsibility talk.  Karen got her condo as well as a lesson and a lecture on what responsibility is with that condo.  But like her mom, Karen was very stubborn and Karen just did not want to grow up and be responsible and cranky like everyone else Karen had known that had grown up and been responsible and became cranky afterwards.  Karen just did not want to be cranky (and what better way to keep from being cranky than to act your shoe size and not your age.  Try it sometimes).

As far as Karen's musical influences...  As far as a public response back in the 70s...  Richard, "The 4 B's - The Beatles, The Beach Boys, Burt Bacharach and Bach".  As far as Karen, "The 3 B's, The Beatles, The Beach Boys and Burt Bacharach" and after 1978, "The 4 B's - The Beatles, The Beach Boys, The Bee Gees and Burt Bacharach".  Karen's singing was only influenced by Karen listening to her own voice.  Karen never tried to sing like anyone else.  When Karen felt her voice was a little off singing a song, she would start singing quietly to herself (singing like Marcel Marceau - the mime).  Karen listened to all kinds of different music, but as far as her singing style, it was all Karen and the song she was singing.  Most of the time I knew Karen, she listened to top 40 radio.  Karen had a few favorite songs she liked but she had a very small record collection as she was fine with whatever was on the radio.  But Karen would try to listen to songs that had the mood she was wanting to be in.  So yes, if Karen was listening to the radio, be prepared for the dial to be turned a lot as Karen would try and bounce around to find a song that reflected the mood she wanted to be in at the time (and Karen's mood changed quite often and without warning).  So when around Karen, unless your favorite song was the radio station changing from song to song, you might get a little frustrated around Karen trying to listen to music.  Karen's favorite part of music was being able to convey ideas and emotions at the same time.  As an example of Karen's singing here (and the ideas behind it)...  For the song "Superstar" Karen looked at the song as a song of yearning.  The song was about a groupie that was yearning for the return of 'Superstar' (which Karen hadn't started seeing Alan Osmond until after this song was done and released).  But anyway, yearning is an emotion where someone is longing for someone to return.  With that being said, Karen elongated the singing in the song to emphasize that the song was about someone yearning (longing) for someone else to return.  Hence, Looong aaggoo...  Longing.  Elongated singing with that wonderful vibrato of hers.  But for Karen, her favorite song was that one wonderful song that hadn't been recorded yet but maybe some day her and Richard might somehow stumble across that song some day and get to record it.  Karen really didn't have a favorite song other than that one she was always hoping to find.  Karen's favorite Carpenters song to sing was "I Need To Be In Love".  Outside that, the closest Karen came to a song done by herself (and being a favorite) was a song called "Rock with You" that Rod Temperton wrote based on ideas Karen had.  The original melody for the chorus was started just after Karen and me had a meeting with Eddie Kramer (the first producer thought of for Karen's solo album) and Eddie had given the same "raison d'etre, reason of being, purpose" speech that he had given Jimi Hendrix and the same speech that had inspired Kiss' "Rock And Roll All Nite" song too.  A day or two after Eddie's speech (late March or early April 1979), Karen had a melody of "I wanna uh with you, uh, uh, uh, uh" stuck in her head.  After meeting with Rod  Temperton in early May 1979, Karen and Rod worked together to come up with the song "Rock with You" based on rough ideas from Karen and "the gift of gab" from Rod Temperton thrown in.  Karen couldn't really write music, so the song, itself, was written by Rod Temperton based on Karen's melody and ideas.  As far as 'the Carpenters sound', most of that was Richard building the music and harmonies around Karen's lead vocals and the song itself.  So it was a truly group effort between Karen and Richard and the song itself.  Well, kind of as the group was primarily made up of Karen coming in and dropping a vocal track in around 5 minutes and then Richard spending the next several days working and layering the music around Karen's vocal track.  Yes, Richard did most of the work and both Richard and Karen had remarkable talent together.  And that was the other great part.  Like in the song "We've Only Just Begun", Karen and Richard always worked together on their music.  Hence 'Carpenters' and not Karen and Richard or Richard and Karen as they were a team and they always worked best when trying to work together as equals.  But as far as Karen's greatest influence on her pursuing a music career was partly because of her brother being so into music, but mostly because while in Connecticut, Karen had developed athlete's foot from taking showers after gym class at the New Haven school.  So after they moved out to Downey and Karen's athlete's foot had got a little worst, Karen looked for an alternative to itchy and dry feet after gym class.  That alternative ended up being marching band for gym class and another alternative of chorus instead of geometry.  So as Karen told me in October 1978, "My greatest influence on getting into music was having a foot fungus.  I owe all my fame and fortune to having athlete's feet and trying to get out of gym class."  But Karen's biggest influence in her life was being herself and being different.  And being different is about being yourself whatever that may be and not about trying to imitate someone else.  So to fill in the blanks here for those asking, Karen's three major influences for getting into singing music were athlete's feet, her brother, and Karen Carpenter's own voice.  Karen's major influence for playing the drums was (read later about the first one here) having a crush on Frankie Chavez and being fidgety with her hands and feet.  Karen had two ranges and as Richard called them, her chest voice and her head voice.  But Karen didn't try to imitate anyone but herself with her singing, so Karen's voice and hearing how her voice sounded was her own influence on the singing end.

As far as politics...  Karen told me she was registered as a Republican but she never had the chance to vote.  As far as politics, Karen wasn't much for politics.  Politics never really interested her that much.  Like with everything, Karen listened for ideas and if they worked they worked and if not move on.  As far as religion Karen was Methodist / Baptist (Holy Roller so to speak) but primarily Christian.  But like with everything, there's stuff that works and other stuff that doesn't work or seem right.  Karen was always open to ideas and was always very thoughtful about those ideas.  Karen was never a devout anything though.

Karen could actually yodel very well.  Listen to "Prime Time Love" from Voice of the Heart.  Karen had thought about doing the "I Want To Be A Cowboy's Sweetheart" song, but it was a very country type song so as far as I know, she skipped it and never recorded a version of it.  Of the versions I have heard of the song (Patsy Montana, Linda Lee, White River Band) Karen's was by far the best I have heard out of an excellent lot.  Could Karen ever yodel.

As far as Karen's solo album and Phil Ramone, you need to understand what Phil wrote for the credits for Karen's solo album (and actually read them for a change),

TO COMPLETELY UNDERSTAND the love and adventure of Karen’s solo project, people should know that we made a conscious decision to experiment with music and styles that were not in the Carpenters’ albums.  We wanted their fans, as well as a new audience, to hear one of the greatest voices in a different surrounding.  We knew some things were trendy and that the intimate songs would express her love of all music.

IT WAS INCONCEIVABLE to those of us involved with the project that a rumor might spread regarding the end of the Carpenters.  That truly was beyond the realm of possibility; Karen loved Richard and the music they made together.  I’ve always related to Richard’s arrangements and composing with deep admiration and we remain friends.

THE LOVE OF BILLY JOEL’S BAND – Rod Temperton and the other players, who had the best time working with her – gave Karen Carpenter’s work in New York a sparkle that can be heard on this album.  Karen and the rest of us who worked on this project understood the decision to wait on the release.

AS YEARS PASSED, both Richard and I wondered when it might be released.  Together we stand proud as this was a piece of work that meant so much to Karen.  It was truly a labor of love.

I HAVE NOT REMIXED or done anything to the tapes.  These mixes, the material and style are the way Karen approved them.  The bonus track is unmixed and was one of several that might have been finished.

I MISS HER TERRIBLY – but I know she’s watching with a smile.

- PHIL RAMONE

So yes, check out that "INCONCEIVABLE" part and then right directly afterwards "THE LOVE OF BILLY JOEL'S BAND" part.  Why did Karen shelve her album according to Phil and Karen, because Karen didn't want people spreading false rumors about Karen and her brother as Karen was not ever wishing to leave her brother or the Carpenters so Karen shelved that solo album and did not want it released because of exactly what has happened since it was released in 1996.  So why all the nonsense then?  Well, why don't you ask Rob Hoerburger, Rick Henry, Randy Schmidt and Joel Samberg (and Phil Ramone is not around anymore to ask, but yeah, talk about someone that "double talks", yeah, that's Phil [and Itchie] Ramone in a nutshell.  The ever arrogant and pompous Phil Ramone with one Grammy Award (actually it was four Grammys for producing by that time [mid May 1979], but the writers seem fixated on Phil winning the producer Grammy in 1979 for Billy Joel's "Just the Way You Are") that needs to save the career of Karen Carpenter who had won three Grammys with her brother.  Oops, um, leave that three Grammys stuff out, shh, yeah, just cross it out there.  No one will notice.  Definitely don't mention the 12 Grammy nominations either).  As Karen would say, "hogwarsh" and as Richard would say, "poppycock" and as I say, "nonsense".  Call it what you will (bullsh*t even if so inclined) but no, as Phil stated there, Karen was not wishing to leave her brother or have false rumors spread about such a thing so Karen shelved that solo album and supposedly Phil understood why as to the probability of false rumors being spread and a press nightmare happening.  So congratulations are in order for Rob Hoerburger, Rick Henry, Randy Schmidt and Joel Samberg for proving that Karen honestly did not want her solo album released because of people wanting to spread false rumors that aren't true and never were true (not Richard or her mom or Alpert or Moss, but KAREN, yoohoo, read that again as Phil stated [truthfully for a change] that it was KAREN that shelved that album).  And include 'best friends', so to speak on their own behalves, Frenda Franklin and Itchie Ramone into the spreading false rumors category as well.  And especially the poison pen of Rob Hoerburger who was not smart enough to read the liner notes included in Karen's solo album before writing a poorly researched fictional type article (the article starts out with a fictional secret tape hidden by Karen that didn't actually exist as such as if Karen had a tape, it would have been kept in either her silver hard shell briefcase, Bible stash or more likely just out in the open in her music room and not hidden on a shelf behind stuffed animals and Disney and I Love Lucy memorabilia and such).  And for some odd reason the piles of hogwarsh, poppycock, nonsense and bullsh*t keep getting deeper from those with fragile egos trying to defend their piles of hogwarsh, poppycock, nonsense and bullsh*t.  Imagine that (as people should understand that all fiction requires a vivid imagination).  Caught on type for all to see who the real ones are that are just trying to make money off of making up stories about someone that passed away that can't defend herself or her family.  If you really think that someone that has won three Grammy Awards with her brother (when she never figured she would ever win any awards) needs to leave her brother (who saved her life and almost ended his career in a motorcycle accident in January 1973) for someone that has trouble keeping their stories straight, trouble keeping a steady clientele and has won only one Grammy Award (actually he won four at the time but the writers only say that Phil won a Grammy in these stories) then no wonder the piles of hogwarsh, poppycock, nonsense and bullsh*t are so deep.  Really peeps? And the ever expanding answer to that question that seems to have no bounds for an answer, but "How stupid can you get"?  Seriously.  I honestly wish people would stop trying to find an answer to that question, but it is what it is I guess.  And now I guess a quote from this author, "100% of those that have been brainwashed don't believe that people can be brainwashed."  And furthermore robtimes.html .

As far as self esteem issues...  Karen actually had very high self esteem but unfortunately, the fiction writers have to try and twist stuff around to try and make it appear that Karen fit that faulty anorexic profile.  But yes, as noted with Karen's solo album, Karen was not looking for rumors to start about a Carpenters break up as there was NOT going to be a break up and that solo album was just a contract clause thing and a way to have Karen try something different as after rehab, Richard wasn't sure if he was going to return to the stage or not.  And the solo album gave Karen a chance to try something different and meet new people and such (like Paul Simon and Peter Cetera and...).   But Karen had an 'image clause' in her A&M recording contract and Phil Ramone had told Karen that "Rock with You" was too 'sexual' for the record company while also trying to tell Karen that "My Body Keeps Changing My Mind" and "Remember When Loving Took All Night" and such were fine.  So Karen did not trust Phil (or Itchie either but she wasn't about to say that publicly as Phil still had possession of the solo album tapes and Karen was worried about Phil sneaking off and releasing them behind her back).  But self esteem was a big reason as to why the solo album wasn't released.  As Karen told me on June 12, 1981 and again on February 3, 1983 that a big reason for shelving the album was that she was proud of giving women that image of being people instead of just 'sex objects' like the media kept pushing as the image women should fit.  So no, Karen did not have low self esteem nor any esteem issues actually.  But fiction writers have to keep to the script and the story and make Karen match that faulty profile.  But in real life, Karen was just like her mom and Karen would voice herself and give people "a piece of her mind" when needed.  Karen was definitely not a push over like the faulty anorexic profile requires.  And yes, Karen was fairly well known by the band that if someone missed a beat or a note or such, they were going to hear about it.  Like her mom, if something wasn't quite right, war path city and Karen would not back down from her principles.  And yes, Karen had principles which means she had self esteem, not a lack of self esteem.  As far as the Thomas Burris stuff, most of that 'talk' comes later here, but an extra tidbit not mentioned below is that after October 1981, there was not going to be any reconciliation and the marriage would be over after paperwork was signed.  What Karen also did was Karen had another woman that was willing to testify that Thomas had tried to unsuccessfully "get in her pants" so to speak, so Karen had Thomas on attempted adultery with a 'witness' for her claim.  Thomas was going to try abandonment of course (and Karen tried to avoid talking to guys, myself included, so that Thomas didn't try to accuse Karen of adultery as well) and Karen had told Thomas that she would put a little extra in the divorce agreement for Thomas if Thomas would just sign the divorce and get out of her life.  But if Thomas wanted to try and stretch this out, then Karen would try to make sure that Thomas got nothing.  That is not low self esteem either.  Karen did not have low self esteem which is only a small part of why Karen does not fit that anorexic profile at all.  Karen was very proud of her stance against the 'status quo' and their "women should be seen and not heard" and "women are just sex objects" as well.  Karen was not wanting to be seen as a 'sex symbol' and such.  Karen was fine with being the girl next door and a tomboy and such.  Karen was just tired of people thinking her and Richard were 'squeaky clean' and such as Karen and Richard weren't party animals and such like many others.  Having low self esteem means trying to do as others do to try and "fit in" and "make the mold" and such.  Karen always tried to "break the mold" and be herself and be different not fit into some mold to be seen as being popular to the press.  Karen definitely never had low self esteem in reality.  Those with low self esteem compromise their principles to try and please others and fit 'the mold'.  Karen was not one to compromise her principles to 'fit in' or be popular.  And also, Karen was the one who wanted the marriage to Thomas to be over.  Karen just could never trust Thomas after what had happened (more the 'witness' than the vasectomy issue).  Which brings up...

Why did Karen actually marry Thomas in the first place (from someone that actually talked with Karen about this instead of worrying about 'photo ops' and such as I was underaged at the time and I didn't want bad publicity for Karen, so Karen and me both decided to wait and if Karen had found someone else in the meantime, then Karen and whomever had my blessings and Karen knew it)?  One of Karen's biggest principles was that she felt that God would always give her three signs (Father, Son, Holy Ghost) before making an important decision.  And so the story goes...  And Karen told me about her feelings about her wedding when we talked on June 12, 1981.  Karen said that she always decided things by three signs (as I knew that, the Father, Son and the Holy Ghost, three) and Karen got her signs crossed.  The first and biggest sign was that I was not there (Karen hadn't realized we had moved or else I would have been there) so Karen thought I didn't care about or love her anymore (not that I didn't want her accused of stuff because of my age and that we had moved since she last saw me on June 22, 1979).  The second sign was that the Burris's were a relation to the Cuticellos and Karen getting married to Tom would make her friend Debbie a distant cousin by marriage.  The third sign was that Karen's mom rarely made speeches and Karen's mom made the 'People Magazine' speech which Karen said wasn't that good of a speech, but if mom made a speech it must be important to her that Karen get married.  Karen thought it wasn't a good speech though as her mom talked about People Magazine and Karen was hoping her mom would talk about commitments and promises and such but her mom just talked about the magazine people being there.  The fourth sign as all of these signs had 'change' in them was the fact that Tom had been caught in several lies and with that Karen thought that getting married would be a good change in Tom and maybe Tom would start being honest for a change.  Getting married was a change all right as Karen told me on June 12, 1981, "Tom changed all right.  Before we got married, Tom would ask permission before doing anything.  After we got married Tom tried to run everything."  But it was four signs and not three and a sign that stuff was messed up and not about 'changes'.  And as I told Karen on June 12, 1981, "Try to remember this, if I don't show up at your wedding it is a sign that you are marrying the wrong guy again."  But after our talk in June 1981, Karen realized that they were four signs that things were messed up and not three signs meaning change.  Karen willingly married Thomas at the time (she wasn't forced into it or such) but afterwards, what a mess.  But if supposedly "Karen's best friends" as has been stated, then why didn't they ask Karen and talk with Karen about why Karen got married instead of assuming stuff?  I don't know as that would be assuming on my end and why should I be like everyone else?  Because 'truth be darned like a pair of old socks' and it doesn't make a good story?  So once upon a time in the future they spent their happily ever after together in the forever after.  Truth included as stories tend to get confusing with all that second guessing and mind reading stuff involved.  But anyone that knew Karen well enough knew that Karen always waited for three signs before making a decision, but if people make that information available publicly, other people's stories would probably change before they told them.  Yes, "stories".  That is how the rest of us know how well someone else knew / knows someone.  That 'personal information' stuff that most of us like to keep private so that we know who is telling 'stories' and who isn't.  And with that, yes, it is the details that are always missing from 'stories' being told that give those 'stories' away.  Shhh.  Try to keep it under your hat or wig or whatever so the storytellers don't notice that you know and then the storytellers will try to make up more stories to cover themselves and then it just gets to be a big mess after that.

So note, on the "Karen's Last Days" page where I noted that Karen's anorexia was not caused by control issues, whether family or not, there does not appear to be a control issue from others or a lack of control issue from others behind Karen's anorexia as noted in those paragraphs above.  And as noted, really, it appears the ones pushing this 'control stuff' appear to be the most guilty of having controlling behaviors themselves (including a few authors as well trying to 'control' Karen's real life narrative to fit some profile that doesn't match).  An "up yours" is in order for those trying to call Richard and Agnes liars and control freaks and such.  Trying to project one's own faults onto others to try and convince everyone that everyone behaves like that is a bad habit and a very dishonest practice.  But I stand by my information that Karen's anorexia has nothing to do with any control issues and was an image issue as noted throughout.  And to put a bur on another's saddle here, true, there never was an article written in Billboard magazine calling Karen "chubby".  I defy anyone to find such an article!  Billboard couldn't and neither could I nor countless others.  And arranged escorts (April 2020 after a Closer article)?  On the E! show, Karen weighed 108 pounds not 84 pounds when she passed away.  Yes, trying to project one's own faults onto others to try and convince everyone that everyone behaves like that is a bad habit and a very dishonest practice indeed.  I disagree with that control stuff as I really don't feel it was Levenkron or Phil Ramone or Itchie or Thomas Burris or the therapists' faults that Karen had anorexia, but if others keep wanting to insist what choice do I have?  From Karen, Karen said she would start feeling lonely around someone if she felt someone was trying to use (control) her or such (users / control freaks try to isolate people from others, divide and conquer so to speak).  Karen told me that she never felt lonely around her family.  Karen did tell me that she had felt lonely around Steven Levenkron, Phil Ramone, Itchie Ramone, Thomas Burris, Max Baer Jr. and most of the therapists (except 3).  So if I were to try and blame others for controlling behavior towards Karen, that would be Steven, Thomas, Phil, Itchie, Max and several therapists, not her family.  Yes, I disagree.  You have choices too.  Feel free.  I do.  Oh cripe, that marriage and relationship (escort?  Really?) stuff is down further in that 'loneliness' paragraph down there, but in the nice time before then...

As far as the 'pills' issue...
(1) Karen talked over the phone about it on February 3, 1983.  Karen talked about the event happening on the first day when Karen checked into Levenkron's Clinic in his office.  Karen had described that her and Itchie had walked from the hotel room over to the clinic and how there was not anyone directly around Karen and Itchie.  When they got in the elevator that day, there were two gentlemen at the back of the elevator wearing black suits but they were not close enough to Karen or Itchie to reach them.  Karen had her arm over her purse anyway.  After getting out of the elevator, no one in the hallway and Karen and Itchie went into Levenkron's office together with Levenkron at his desk.  Karen said that after Levenkron had Karen sign the admission papers that Levenkron dumped Karen's purse on his desk and that six pill bottles appeared that Karen knew she did not have in her purse (but they came from someone else, Itchie or Levenkron).  Karen took X-LAX (those little chocolate squares) and had a couple Pamprin (or Midol), a couple aspirins, a tampon and her makeup and such.  Karen knew she was checking in and that she would be searched and she didn't have anything else anyway, but...  Karen said the pills weren't hers and that Levenkron gave Karen a list of six things that were supposedly in those bottles.  This happened after Levenkron originally had Karen sign admission papers into the clinic and Karen had told me that Levenkron had told Karen that if Karen said anything about that to anyone, that Levenkron would have papers made up to have Karen committed to Bellevue Hospital.  Believe it or not, Karen's story checks out as you will see.
(2) The story from Levenkron and Itchie has changed so many times I lost count.  Karen said on the initial meeting and Itchie has said later on and Levenkron and blah blah blah.  It's just messy expecting a straight answer from Itchie or Levenkron about any of this.
(3) From what can be seen on the "A Current Affair" video from the 1993 show featuring Levenkron, Levenkron shakingly brings out the pill bottles and the 'Synthroid' bottle can be seen clearly.  To note, number one, Karen did not have identification for a 'Karen Burris'.  Number Two, The label is bare and there is not any clear tape over the label (pharmacists put a clear piece of tape over labels to keep the label from wearing off).  Number three, the prescription states 1 mg instead of .1 mg on the bottle.  Number four, there is a clinic name listed but not the name of a prescribing physician on that bottle.  Number five, Karen said they weren't her pills and I believe that wholeheartedly after seeing all that.  Number six, what about the other five pill bottles?  What were in those?  Levenkron talks about Synthroid, but?
(3A) True, none of this pill stuff shows up in Karen's toxicology report.  A big plus for what Karen had said had happened with Levenkron.  Also note, as far as Emetine... Emetine is supposed to make a person vomit and not stay in a person's system.  That is why there is no way of knowing how long the Emetine had been in Karen's body, just that Karen's liver had stored it (for however long) to keep it from going through Karen's system.
(4) Steven Levenkron, fiction author of the book "The Best Little Girl In the World" and not Dr., MD or PhD, but Steven Levenkron.  Also, during Karen's stay, Levenkron is not able to directly treat Karen.
(5) It is very difficult and something needs to be really shady for a Dr., MD or PhD to lose their practicing license.  Levenkron comes from the UK (stone instead of pounds) and is in New York City.  Possible lack of ability to transfer medical license or whatever possible, and privacy is a big issue.  So lots of speculation but bottom line is not Dr., MD or PhD and anything else is just speculation and irrelevant I feel.
(6) To Levenkron's credit, Levenkron has stated that Karen did not fit the anorexic profile that he uses for admission into his clinic.  According to Levenkron, 90 - 95% of anorexics do not match that profile and Levenkron turns away far more patients than he treats.
(7) Levenkron also states that part of his treatment involves trying to make the client (Karen) dependent on the therapist.  How is that done?  Yes, control and manipulation and brainwashing and such.  Read #1 again.
(8) Stories are just not matching up here including stuff that Karen told me about Itchie that doesn't match anything I have heard from Itchie (like the first meeting and the purse dumping and the threat of Bellevue and such).  I know Karen and I met Itchie (with Phil in June 1979 during the extra 100K meeting).  I just know which is why I feel this is all speculation on my part.
(9) So yes, control is part of the Levenkron program.  So a lot of subjective stuff here that is really best left up to Karen and Levenkron and Itchie and such.  All that guessing just makes a huge mess and doesn't solve anything if you haven't noticed.
(10) Yes, also the "big blow out" between Karen and Itchie in 1982 (somewhere from May to August 1982).  Karen had told me that she had talked with Phil and Itchie on February 2, 1983 during Karen and my phone call on February 3, 1983 @ 5 PM Pacific Time (before dinner @ 6 PM).  As far as the big blow out in 1982, Karen told it a little differently than what I saw from Itchie.  Karen had told me that she had asked Itchie about how Itchie had heard about her private family meeting with Levenkron and Itchie came back about Itchie finding laxatives around the apartment (without answering Karen's question) then Karen mentioned the pill incident at Levenkron's and then Itchie changed the subject to her credit card bill.  After the change of subject Karen dropped the "64 thousand dollar question" to Itchie of "Were you and Phil trying to get me fired from A&M?"  Itchie couldn't answer that question either.  Karen actually called Itchie on February 2, 1983 to give Itchie a chance to answer that question again, but Phil was there on the other end so Karen didn't ask.  Karen also told me that she had not told Thomas any details about her solo album or such, but she had told Thomas that if a producer called asking to do a solo album that the answer was "No." no matter what the amount or such, "No."  As far as Karen and me on February 3, 1983 - I knew about Phil and all that mess so Karen and I talked about it.  At first I said "If Phil calls, five million cash up front as you know he tried to wreck your career last time and I think we could live off of five million."  And good old Karen, "Make it ten million as I really don't want to go through all of that again and if he says no, bump it up five million each time he asks after that."  And Karen and I over the phone at the same time, "Agreed."
(10A) The stuff that has been said about the anorexic profile and such checks out with Levenkron and the clinic, but unfortunately this pill stuff doesn't check out and is a big mess.
(11) But yes this whole mess is as big of a "can of worms" as Karen's solo album was if not bigger and best to leave that stuff between those involved and God and all that.
(12) Speaking of God, He was the only one who benefitted from Karen's passing away so as I try to say, "God wanted her, so He took her."  No one else wanted Karen gone including Karen herself.
(13) Not just people, but I guess God can be subjective too as after all we are all made in His image.

And now, the 'attention' issue...  Karen used to try and hide her anorexia with layers of clothing and such, not draw attention to herself.  Karen trying to draw attention to herself by not eating is just absurd.  And for the record too, Karen did not like wearing tight clothing as she did not like stuff rubbing up against her skin.  So actually the loose clothing Karen wore had nothing to do with Karen trying to hide anything.  Karen wearing several layers of loose clothing is another issue and open for debate (as without Karen around, there is not a definitive answer there about wearing several layers of clothing and only speculation as it seems from my own experiences that extra layers of clothing will cause the inner layers to rub more).  Please try to read karenlastdays.html again as far as what was triggering Karen's not eating patterns (that stuff about her rules before performing and sleeping and about that 'straight as a board' stuff too).  Karen told me and I knew as well that if Karen ever had a problem all she had to do was talk to her mom and her and her mom would sit at the kitchen table (or talk on the phone) and talk in private.  If Karen wanted privacy, her family gave her privacy.  "Starving for Attention" is a book by Cherry Boone and not about Karen Carpenter.  Cherry and Karen were nearly exact opposites of one another in all honesty.  Cherry Boone was the one "Starving for Attention" and Karen was trying to avoid getting attention.  Yes, Karen and Cherry were not anything near being alike.  Karen and Richard always worked together and always helped each other out and looked after each other.  Richard was always proud of Karen's voice and Karen was always proud of how her brother helped bring her voice out with the arrangements of the music.  Karen and Richard both felt themselves equally gifted in different areas (Karen - voice, Richard - music and instrumentations) and worked together with their strengths. Karen and Richard were a team.  What jealousy between Karen and Richard?  Karen had a great voice that Richard was proud of and Richard was great with composing and arranging music that Karen was proud of.  What were Karen and Richard going to compete over between themselves?  A farting contest?  Who could iron shirts the fastest?  Who could be more appreciative of the other?  Karen and Richard were / are the types that competed to better themselves and not competing to be better than others.  The music industry is based on record sales and chart positions and the industry itself is very competitive.  But Karen and Richard were not going to go out and compete against others by biting the heads off of snakes or getting in drunken bar room fights or that kind of stuff.  Richard and Karen were in the music business and looked for ways to try and improve what they were doing musically.  Karen and Richard looked for ways to better themselves musically, not for ways to be better than others.  Richard and Karen stuck with their principles and stuck with their abilities to make melodic 'pop(ular)' music.  Richard had a piano and Karen had drums.  I don't ever recall Richard wanting to play the drums or Karen wanting to play the piano to try and outdo each other because of that jealousy stuff.  That just doesn't sound right; does it?  They always worked together as a team which is something a jealous person can't do with someone they are jealous of.  Cherry felt inferior to Debby Boone (You Light Up My Life).  Cherry and Debby apparently couldn't work as a team (my guess would be because of Cherry being jealous).  Not even close there on all levels (including that brother / sister vs. sister / sister thing).  So honestly, will those trying to push this 'anorexic profile' based on Cherry Boone as being like Karen Carpenter up an orifice where the Sun don't shine?  Pretty please with a suppository on top?  That 'anorexic profile' stuff is just plain crazy and absurd and fits Cherry Boone like a glove and does not fit Karen Carpenter or her family at all.  I don't even think that anorexic profile fits the Boone family either, only Cherry.  I know that Agnes Carpenter, Shirley Boone and Olivia Newton-John aren't exactly alike.  And Karen Carpenter, Cherry Boone and Chloe Lattanzi aren't exactly alike either.  So huh?  All people make mistakes in a process known as learning.  Experts do not make mistakes, therefore, all experts are just figments of their own imaginations.  Have you learned something?

How about learning some more?  OK?  Most of this discussion gets discussed in the next paragraph, but this paragraph links to more detailed discussions (which you can skip if you want or not, your choice, you know, that reader person that usually gets told what they can and can't do or think by that author person).  But yeah, this author's usually known for being a bit 'different' from others.  If you want to get educated as to how bad this psychobabble is, try this page karencarp.html And look for the "full" stories of "The Dragon Lady" (1978-79 LIV), Karen's therapy sessions and what Karen had to say about them including that "my mom won't hug me or say she loves me junk" (1978-79 LIII), Richard and Karen talking about Richard and the 'favorite' stuff (1978-79 XLIV third paragraph), Richard being the favorite (1978-79 LII, LIII).  Karen never felt unloved by her family (mom, dad or brother).  That stuff is just all bogus and full of lies and half truths.  And try this page karentime.html and look at #1 through 15 in that first section.  Yes, a bunch of 'fiction' authors and fictitious 'experts' that never met or talked with Karen but they must know all about Karen even though they never met or talked with Karen.  And these so-called friends that comment about what they felt Karen was thinking instead of actually asking her to be sure when they had the chance instead of attempted mind reading and second guessing.  Where is Carnac the Magnificent when you need him?  Such a rush to jump to conclusions to try and provide support for a faulty 'anorexic profile' that fails miserably in most cases (except Cherry Boone of course).  And yes, I could write for decades probably about how messed up that stuff is (or you could read this goodbyetolovecrock.html and then watch the "Goodbye To Love" crockumentary [available on YouTube] to see that anorexic profile mess at its finest).  So again honestly, will those trying to push this 'anorexic profile' based on Cherry Boone as being like Karen Carpenter up an orifice where the Sun don't shine?  Pretty please with a suppository on top again?  All people make mistakes, myself included.  Yes, Karen always believed in forgiveness of others as we can all make mistakes.  The guy writing this always believes in earning forgiveness through repentance (admitting a mistake was made) and penance (trying to make amends for that mistake) as through repentance and penance, those mistakes are not likely to keep being repeated over and over again and having to do repentance and penance over and over again too. [Soap box collapses finally from the weight of it all].

And if you learned something then you hopefully realize now what a mess others that never knew Karen that well have made by taking things out of context and also by not asking the big question, "Why?".  The Dragon Lady actually started out as several stories that Karen made up to tell a neighbor boy, Jason, and was a set of stories that Karen told that were based on her and her mom about the fierce Dragon Lady that had a warm and tender heart.  Around 1972 / 1973 Karen and her mom also referred to Maria (hairdresser / personal assistant) as "the two-headed Dragon Lady" in private.  The therapy sessions were a mess as the therapists actually never listened to anything Karen had to say and were always trying to put words and thoughts into Karen's head instead of asking if those words or thoughts were true or not.  Attempted brainwashing, plain and simple.  But imagine sitting there with a therapist telling you that you had said things that you had never said and that you thought things that you hadn't ever thought about.  That was Karen's therapy and a complete disaster as noticed everywhere as therapists and such that never even met Karen or talked with Karen keep trying to put words and thoughts on Karen that Karen never had because of a stupid profile that even a guy behind the profile has stated that that profile is invalid for nearly 90 to 95% of anorexics.  Yes, in all honesty, nearly 90 to 95% of those that apply to get into Levenkron's clinic are not accepted as they don't fit that anorexic profile that Levenkron uses.  Levenkron, himself, has even said that Karen didn't fit that profile and originally refused to work with Karen.  Levenkron thought maybe he could try and help, but the therapy that the clinic offered was not designed for Karen and did not help Karen.  As far as the "favorite" issue.  Yes, that's a long one and has several parts to it.  Originally, Richard was 'the favorite' because Karen would get dirty playing baseball and drag mud through the house.  Well, Karen didn't want to be the 'favorite' and Karen loved to play baseball.  Calling Richard the favorite and praising him and such didn't bother Karen at all but it did kind of bother Richard which then started 'phase 2'.  Phase 2 was where both Karen and mom were worried that Richard was around the house too much and that Richard should get out more.  So in phase 2 (you know how women are) mom would lavish praises on Richard while Karen would tell Richard that if guys saw his mom doing this that the guys would start calling Richard a "mama's boy".  Richard got out of the house more for some reason.  After this, Karen and her mom had the secret between themselves of "behind every successful man is a strong woman" which, of course, behind Richard was mom and Karen.  Karen actually used to think it was funny and pick on her brother about Richard being "the favorite" and all that.  But the big secret was between Karen and her mom and how they had used that "favorite" stuff to get Richard to get out more in the real world.  So exactly, so many try to paint the picture they wish to see instead of asking others about what actually happened.  Karen told me about the favorite stuff after Richard had flown out to see Karen in mid May 1979 and Karen had picked on Richard by saying "oh Richie witchy, you're so fabulous and wonderful.  Would you like mommy to tuck you in?" And Richard talking about how embarrassing that stuff was but it was his mom and what're you going to do.  And Karen snickering in the background behind Richard as it was actually a big inside secret between Karen and her mom that Karen told me about later on another day.  But Karen and me weren't wanting to ever be 'favorites' as the stereotype of the favorite is that they are the ones that put the round pegs in the round holes and the square pegs in the square holes and the favorites do as others do which is why they are favorites.  Karen and me liked being black sheep that put the square pegs in the round holes and the round pegs in the square holes and if they didn't fit, you just need to use a bigger mallet.  So anyone trying to say that Karen ever wanted to be the 'favorite' never knew the real Karen, only the Karen they wanted her to be, not who Karen actually was.  And speaking of stereotypes, Karen's mom tended to stereotype people whereas Karen was against stereotyping people.  Karen's mom enjoyed Dionne Warwick's singing, but Dionne smoked cigarettes and mom didn't want Karen picking up a habit like that.  Olivia came from a broken home as her parents had divorced or as Karen's mom called them "latch key kids" where with only one parent, many times the children of divorced or separated parents would be unsupervised.  Unsupervised children tend to get into and create a lot of mischief.  And as this page is being subjective instead of 'objective', the best thing to remember and learn here I guess is that everyone is entitled to their opinion, but unless you ask someone directly, your assertions and assumptions are only that, subjective, and not objective.  That is why I moved all of this kind of junk here as even with me who asked and talked with Karen about this kind of stuff, unless you are the person in question, your opinion is just that, an opinion, and not fact.  Opinions are never objective (fact) and are always subjective (opinion).  Facts are what happened.  Opinions are people's ideas or reasonings behind what happened and subject to objections.  Objectively like, "She jumped in the lake" or subjectively like, "She jumped into the lake because everyone else jumped into the lake".  Do you (the reader) see the difference now between being objective and subjective?  Objectively, "Richard was mom's favorite."  Subjectively, "Richard was mom's favorite because..." as unless you are Richard's mom, herself, then it is subjective.  But then too, Karen used to talk a lot with Richard's mom in private, so it is a strong probability that Karen probably did get a lot of inside information from Richard's mom that Richard probably had no clue about.  But that is still speculative and subjective.  And of course comes projection and scapegoating and such.  So why would smart people avoid all that psychobabble speculative nonsense?  Because it makes a huge mess when people guess about stuff that they really have no way of knowing for sure if what they are guessing is accurate or not when the other person they are guessing about has passed away and can't be asked about it anymore.  Just a thought like that "everyone has a right to their opinion" thought.  Everyone also has the right to be honest and also the right to be dishonest too.  Mistakes happen expecially when people deem opinions to be facts when the facts say that the opinion is not accurate.  Yes a huge mess (as noted in the next to the next to [the second next to] the last paragraph here while stating Phil Ramone had one Grammy and Karen and Richard had three so Phil Ramone was definitely much more than Karen and Richard, ho boy...  Yes, I really wish I was making this stupidity up, but apparently people are dumb enough to believe that a guy with one Grammy Award is far superior than Richard and Karen who had won three Grammy Awards (note, actually Phil won four at the time but the writers only say that Phil won a Grammy in these stories).  I kid you not that some are actually dumb enough to believe this nonsense and then turn around and say how great and accurate these 'hack and slash' type writers are ['Hacks' as I call them for short] that tend to miss details like 'three Grammy Awards' because it negates the story they wish to tell).

And about the psychobabble stuff...  For those wishing to know, Karen had told me that she had been tested as an INFJ-A personality type on the MBI (Myers-Briggs Index).  Just a heads up here about the kind of person that Karen was.  Karen and I were both INFJ-A's and we were a lot alike.  Well, actually, INFJ-A types tend to try to be different from everyone else including other INFJs.  Very unique and very self reliant and all that.  And for those not wishing to know, yes it is impossible for a person with an INFJ-A type personality to fit that profile of an anorexic; truth be told against your wishes.  That anorexic profile is based on someone that is an extrovert and relies on others' opinions and such while an introvert is very self reliant and follows an internal set of rules and guidelines.  The anorexic therapy for Karen was a complete disaster (and is still a complete disaster for most anorexics) as Karen was an introvert that is very self reliant and had her own internal set of rules and guidelines, and not an extrovert that relies on others.  And over 40 years later I still have yet to see any kind of program developed to try and help introverts that have anorexia as all programs still appear to be centered around extroverts and that 'anorexic profile'.  And the reason why you don't see Karen's rules of 4 hours before performimg or 4 hours before sleeping when the psychobabblers talk is because none of the therapists ever asked Karen "why don't you eat?" and always assume that all anorexics fit that faulty profile without realizing how faulty that profile is as it excludes about 80 to 90% of people in general and excludes about 90 to 95% of all anorexics.  Yoohoo, psychobabblers, most anorexics are asked to get help by their family while most psychobabblers try to tell the anorexic that their family doesn't care about them as per that faulty anorexic profile criteria.  Double yoohoo, hint, if the family did not care, they wouldn't ask the anorexic to get help.  Yes, still a huge mess of psychobabbling stupidity to this day.  That is why you don't hear about Karen having a rule of not eating 4 hours before sleeping or 4 hours before performing as none of the therapists or such ever asked Karen if she had any rules about "not eating".  On top of that, Karen's mom was raised with the word 'love' to mean 'making love' and that 'caring' was caring.  Agnes (mom) cared about her son and daughter greatly, but they didn't ask Agnes if she cared about her kids, only if she 'loved' them.  Yes, a psychobabble set up.  Note also, Agnes didn't say she 'loved' Richard either.  Agnes did love her husband Harold but she never got asked that either only if she loved her kids (which of course she couldn't say that she loved Richard or Karen as Agnes wasn't looking to have sex with her kids).  Smoke screen.  Covering tracks.  On top of that, Agnes was also raised that only a pervert would grope their kids so to speak.  Agnes wouldn't hug Richard either.  Child molesters are always touchy feely with kids.  In an area where child molesting is frowned upon, parents may hold their kid's hands while crossing the street and such, but a parent hugging and groping their kid becomes very suspicious to those that are against people molesting and or having sex with their children.  Those that don't touch each other can't have sex together.  A truth.  And after it became common place for adults to grope kids in public, how come there was such a rise in children being sexually molested and abused?  Child molestation and rape wasn't very common back in the day when it was frowned upon for parents to grope or hug their kids.  It must be the parent's fault that the shrinks and society in general changed those rules and then child molestation and child rape started becoming more common place.  These are apparently the same types of individuals that state that Karen was trying to draw attention to herself by losing weight then in the next breath they continue with how Karen used to wear extra layers of clothing to hide her weight loss.  And if something does not make sense, it is known as nonsense or hogwash (Karen) or poppycock (Richard) or bullsh*t (nearly everyone else).  I don't know how someone could bring attention to something by hiding it either but not my story here nor Karen's story either.  Yes, a new meaning of stoopid here by others.  It is impossible for something to remain hidden while having attention drawn to it.  As the older generation saying went, "Going to Hell in a handbasket".  So true.   And it appears that the ones leading the way to Hell have college degrees and no common sense and blame the problems that result from a lack of common sense on everyone else.  Try this experiment for yourself, hug an a**hole and watch as they will still be an a**hole whether hugged or not.  Proven fact.  Now try this experiment where you hug a nice person and they are still a nice person whether hugged or not (but like the a**hole experiment, they will look at you kind of funny).  So it must be the hugging that decides whether a person acts like an a**hole or a nice person.  The logic behind this thought is also the logic behind a practice known as 'brainwashing' as in order for others to think that something that stoopid as hugging decides whether someone is nice or an a**hole needs to be repeated a zillion times as otherwise no one in their right mind would ever come to such a conclusion based on actual evidence and information.  An a**hole is still an a**hole same as a nice person is still a nice person whether hugged or not.  Ignant as I used to say as ones like that are lacking enough thought to be able to be considered intelligent enough to be ignorant nor do they have any oars in the water either.  Ignant.  Beyond stoopid.  Lacking any common sense.  Completely ignant (the earliest I remember coming up with this term was around early January 1979).  Even more to think about here.  We know that marijuana (canibis) causes the same feeling as lettuce leaves, banana peels, corn silk and more importantly Nitrous Oxide (laughing gas).  We, as true scientists know that it is the laughing gas that causes the uncontrollable laughing when high nitrogen content plant life is smoked.  But unlike banana peels, lettuce leaves, corn silk and laughing gas, canibis also has a side effect of creating 'the munchies' aka an uncontrollable urge to eat.  We know what the Nitrogen does, but there is an unknown ingredient (defined as Tetra HydraCanibinal or THC) which is apparently what causes the munchies.  As far as marijuana smoking and cancer treatment, it is the THC that helps the cancer patient counteract the Chemotherapy side effects especially the upset stomach side effect.  Adjusting the Nitrogen level adjusts the 'high' laughing factor.  Adjusting the THC level adjusts the munchie level.  Thus the current lie that higher THC creates a better 'buzz'.  No, in actuality, the higher THC level has created some children that have an uncontrollable urge to eat and will literally try to eat themselves because their parent or parents had too much THC in their system when someone got pregnant and that overage went directly to the fetus.  Not a good thing.  Yes, these are the same types of scientists that label animals that eat their own excrement as being smarter than humans and also smarter than other animals that do not eat their own excrement.  These are also the same types of scientists that do not realize gestation periods and talk about large reptiles that roamed the Earth for millions of years without doing the gestation math and realizing that we are missing a sh*t load of freaking fossils to support such nonsense, let alone the million years nonsense in and of itself.  And how did the animals always seem to know to evolve lungs and a circulatory system and a nervous system and such.  And of course the long extinct coelacanth that died out 65 million years ago and counting as it apparently didn't actually die out for some unknown reason (probably because it wasn't busy reading books or watching the news on radio or TV or even reading books or magazines to know it had been extinct for 65 million years).  For some odd reason the coelacanth doesn't know enough about cockamamie science to know it died out 65 million years ago and is actually extinct despite still existing.  And about this climate change / global warming nonsense.  Really?  Try this page science.html as that discussion is about as long as this page has become.  Yes, it is a slow process trying to get those that have been brainwashed to try and use logic and common sense.  So slow a process that intelligent life has apparently still not happened yet except in animals that eat their own poop (which I honestly do not belong in this group of poop eaters).  AND YES, a complete lack of common f***ing sense.  No sh*t.  F***ing 1D-10Ts (one D minus ten T's, it's a math problem and represents why stuff is not adding up).  I have had a lot of practice with people that develop the 'rocking motion' and that rocking motion is not a sign that the person needs a hug but the opposite and the person rocking usually wishes to be left alone as they feel no one cares about them.  Hugging a person in such a state is never a good idea.  From my own experiences with these people, they are tired of people saying they care when they really don't care.  Hugging is not caring which is why it is not a good idea to try and hug these people as they will lash out at anyone that comes too near.  There are several different causes for the rocking motion but that rocking motion is always an indication that the person does not wish to care anymore and they have had enough of fake people that say or do things but really don't mean what they say or do.  Hypocrites in a word.  But sexual molestation can be one of several causes of the rocking motion and in that case, the person rocking is tired of someone always touching them and wants it to stop and they defeinitely are NOT looking to be hugged.  That is why talking with a person is so important and actually talking and not assuming (making an ass out of you and me) or speculating or such is the key to helping that person.  Actual understanding, not second guessing or such.  As far as with Karen, she had two (non shrinks?) that talked with her and one (non shrink?) that was kind of indifferent.  For the two that talked with her, one was a student and not licensed to practice psychology or psychiatry and she had a difficult to pronounce last name so she went by her first name.  The other was a guy named Mark that was actually my fourth grade teacher.  The indifferent one was the one Karen had her past life regressive hypnotism with.  As far as the rest of the shrinks (psychiatrists, psychologists, therapists)...  The shrinks and such never talked with Karen to see if she actually did have any self esteem issues or not.  And yes, SHRINKS, as they try and shrink the world down into what they want the world for them to be instead of looking at the world as it really is.  SHRINKS.  As is evidenced all over, the shrinks didn't even bother talking with Karen as there are nothing but assumptions from the shrinks about Karen and not one damned word from those shrinks about anything Karen herself, actually said.  Not one damned word from Karen, herself about any of that stuff.  Karen never said she felt that her family didn't care about her (or felt unloved either).  Karen did say that she felt that her mom could be overprotective at times which is actually the opposite of being uncaring.  And that not talking publicly about her anorexia treatments is because they never talked with Karen and always just assumed (make an ass out of you and me) and as a result, a complete f***ing mess now by a bunch of f***ing a**holes.  So yes, this is exactly why Karen didn't talk publicly about her anorexia problem as the therapists and shrinks never talked with Karen and Karen didn't have anything nice to say about those that never talked with her about anything and always made assumptions and tried to put words and ideas on Karen that Karen never had.  None of that stuff helped and absolutely nothing nice to say about why that stuff didn't help.  It wasn't until November 1982 when Karen and her mom came up with the idea of Karen weighing herself once a week (Friday mornings) that Karen might have finally had something nice to say and a possible solution to her problems with anorexia (Karen had also stayed at about 108 pounds from November 1982 to when she passed away in early February 1983).  But yeah, just imagine after an interview with Karen about anorexia and the headlines of "Shrinky Dinks" with an article of "Karen talks about anorexia on a talk show and reveals that therapists and shrinks have their heads up their asses as Karen was in therapy and they kept talking about some chick named Karen and Karen had no f***ing clue who the f*** they were talking about even though she was the only Karen in the room."  Film at 11.

And, OK, about that 'loneliness' stuff too...  First, Karen did not see "Superstar" as a sad song.  Karen saw the song as a song of yearning.  If you try and sing it as a sad song, it won't sound like Karen sounded.  Yearning is a type of hope, not sadness.  Hoping someone returns again, Mr. Superstar.  And hoping and 'longing' for the return of Mr. Superstar which was where Karen got the idea to elongate the singing to try and emphasize the 'longing' or yearning for Mr. Superstar to return.  And no, Karen even said that she didn't sing that song because of Alan Osmond as Karen hadn't even met Alan (1973?) at the time they recorded that song (1971? / 1972?) if I remember what Karen said correctly.  And probably only about 5% of the Carpenters' song catalog consisted of 'sad' songs.  Except those that act like they were 'brainwashed', most people see Karen's voice as actually being very uplifting and not sad on most songs.  Rainy Days And Mondays is actually kind of an exception as Ticket To Ride and Solitaire and Goodbye To Love are exceptions as well.  Most songs were like Happy, Please Mr. Postman, Goofus, All You Get From Love Is A Love Song, Love Me For What I Am, Let Me Be The One, Mr. Guder, Sweet Sweet Smile, Top of the World and many, many, many more.  Karen preferred singing songs that were uplifting but she did like doing songs that had emotion to them whatever that emotion may be.  Karen loved music that made people (including herself) feel emotional.  One of Karen's favorite wild and crazy type songs was a song called Moby Dick by Led Zeppelin (Karen loved Bonzo's drumming) but unfortunately Karen could never quite get the hang of the lyrics for that song.  As far as Karen's boyfriends (and one husband, almost two)...  The relationships.  I know a bit about those too.  Frankie Chavez was actually never a boyfriend but kind of Karen's first crush so to speak.  Frankie was seeing someone else though and within a couple months, Karen realized that outside the drums, Karen and Frankie didn't have much in common with each other.  But Karen told me Frankie was her first crush or puppy love or whatever.  Note. looking at Karen's time line of boyfriends Mark Harmon (acquaintance?), Bill Hudson (acquaintance?), Jerry Vance (late 1960s), Gary Sims (?1969?), Gary Luby (1969-1970?), Nicky Chinn (1971 - 72? and 1974 - 75?), Alan Osmond (1973), David Alley (1973, not sure if they did actually get together or not with the Maria stuff that happened with Richard.  Karen never told me for sure or not, but oops, I saw a picture of Karen and David recently and Karen had a secret she told me about herself in June 1981.  Karen and David were a couple at one time or another), Mike Curb (1973 - 1974), Terry Ellis (1975), John Adrian (1976 - 1977), Steve Martin (1977), Tom Bahler (1978 - 1979), Tony Danza (maybe 1978? and maybe 1979-80?), Thomas Burris (1980 - 1983), and a couple others I know about but leaving off here (at least 3 more that Karen had sex and a relationship with them from 1978 to 1983).  Yes, Karen was pretty lonely I guess.  Karen had a lively dating history despite the schedule.  And as far as scheduling, Many of Karen's boyfriends and Karen, herself, had secretaries or assistants that would try and match up days when they were available.  It wasn't really arranged by the assistants or such, but they had to have 'days off' and the secretaries and assistants were the ones who kept track of that stuff.  Karen never had an 'escort' (someone just there to be a guy at an event or such without any possibility for a relationship) I guess you could say.  Karen always had 'dates' (guys that Karen was interested in seeing if there was a possible lasting relationship there).  As far as what didn't work...  I didn't realize who Nicky Chinn was at first until I remembered that Karen said she had gone back with a guy that she had broke up with before.  Karen only referred to him with me as Mr. Know-It-All which was why his name, Nicky, didn't click with me at first.  I got two good pieces of advice from Karen when she talked about Nicky that one time.  Number one, DON'T EVER INTERRUPT KAREN AND SPEAK ON HER BEHALF AND PUT WORDS IN HER MOUTH which led to number two of don't ever go back with someone you break up with as THEY DON'T CHANGE AND INTERRUPT YOU AND DON'T LET YOU SPEAK ON YOUR OWN BEHALF AND PUT WORDS IN YOUR MOUTH AGAIN.  Alan and Karen didn't have enough time together because of their schedules but also Alan was a Mormon and Karen was Methodist/Baptist.  As far as Alan, Karen had a rule that she told me about in 1978 and 1979 that if people were going to accuse her of something, she was going to do it and not be falsely accused.  Also, Alan's family was Mormon and so sex without marriage is not allowed.  So a probable publicity nightmare here for Alan and a principle issue with Karen (being accused).  Another principle issue or 'rule' that Karen had that she told me about in June 1981 was that she would keep her fingers together while holding hands with a guy who was just a friend, but Karen would interlock her fingers and palms together while holding hands with a guy that she was wanting to be 'more than friends'.  There were a lot of family pressures between Alan and Karen.  They were both very interested in each other.  But Alan was a Mormon and Mormons believe in bigamy (multiple wives, husbands) and no sex without marriage while Karen was Christian and felt one woman one man.  Both the Osmond and Carpenter parents had reserves about Alan and Karen as Karen wasn't about to become Mormon against hers and her family's wishes and Alan wasn't about to become Christian against his and his family's wishes.  And Karen did come out publicly and state that despite the tabloid rumors, Karen and Alan did not have sex together as Karen was worried that even though it was just rumors, that rumors such as those would get Alan ostracized from the Mormon church.  With that being said, like most personal stuff, best to leave the real answer up to Alan and Karen and the rest of us need to butt out of that.  Speculation is just that, speculation.  Thank you.  David Alley was about 5 years older, but with the working together, a conflict of interest and like with Richard and Maria, work or boy/girlfriend - not both.  David chose work; Maria chose neither work nor Richard.  Mike Curb was kind of a work conflict too and Mike chose someone else a year or two later anyway.  Terry Ellis was a work and a compatibility issue as well; a mess.  Terry was an executive and co-owner of Chrysalis Records and a definite conflict of interest there.  Terry didn't want to break up the Carpenters as Karen without Richard would not be a good thing.  If Karen AND Richard, definitely.  But the big problem there was not as much the conflict of interest, but the fact that Karen was a home body and Terry was an executive jet setter so to speak.  Just two different worlds.  Karen told me that she lived with Terry for about a week and then after that week (or two?) Karen just snuck out on Terry and broke up with Terry over the phone as Karen felt an in person break up would have just been a long mess with trying to talk about all the differences and such.  There were just too many differences there and Karen liked sitting at home in front of the TV with a TV dinner and Terry liked eating in posh restaurants and such.  It was just two different worlds.  Terry was a jet setter and Karen was a country bumpkin so to speak.  Steve Martin and Karen cared about each other, but it just didn't feel special for them so they decided to just break it off with no hard feelings or such.  Karen said that her and Steve just didn't have any 'zing' there between them.  Usually someone gets violins or harps or wedding bells or such and it just didn't happen between them so they broke it off and Steve met someone else a little while later.  John Adrian was a kind of odd one.  There were sparks there, but also a conflict of work interest too.  Part I believe was also the countries (Karen - USA, John - UK) and in the USA an affair is seeing multiple people, playing the field as it was called back then.  In the UK, an affair is seeing (one) someone out of wedlock.  Karen and John were having an affair by British standards (but not by USA standards that I am aware of) and when asked about having an affair, John did say yes that he was having an affair with Karen.  Anyway, ultimatum by Derek Green (A&M UK), John either stops seeing Karen or John loses his job for having an affair with a client (John was an UK publicist for A&M).  John took a vacation and about 3 months later got married to someone else.  Karen chose the song, "I Believe You" for a single in October / November 1978 as she felt the song tied in with her problems with John Adrian and that after Karen found out that John married someone else 3 months after they broke up, Karen wasn't interested in John anymore.  Karen wanted to believe what John had said to her, but after John got married after they broke up, Karen didn't believe what John said.  Yes, as Karen noticed, she seemed to be the kind of girl that tended to get guys in the frame of mind to marry 'the next one that came along' so to speak.  Tom Bahler was another as Karen saw him just after he had broken up with a girl he had been with for a couple years (Rhonda or Rhoda, something like that).  Karen told me she had 'sympathy sex' with Tom to try and help Tom try and get over his ex-girlfriend (and during that phone call with Rod Temperton where we discussed Karen and Tom, Rod piped up, "Where's mine?" about Karen's sympathy sex comment on Tom.  Karen answered, "We're working together and I don't get involved with guys I work with").  Tom wrote the song "She's Out of My Life" about Rhonda or whatever and gave Karen the song to possibly use in I think either 1978 or early 1979 (and the song went to Michael Jackson).  As far as the others, Karen was actually 'the other woman' with one guy and that went on from September 1978 until around mid May 1979.  And as far as Tony Danza, I know Karen met Tony around 1978 but not sure if they actually dated back then.  Tony was younger than Karen and Karen felt awkward about that.  I think Karen and Tony came together in either late 1979 or early 1980 for a short while but like Karen said, she just wasn't comfortable with a younger guy.  And of course Tom Burris which is a post and a half all in itself.  Karen originally had a long list of things she was looking for in a guy and also in that list were things that she was looking to avoid in a guy.  Originally the list was over 50 long and Karen managed to shorten it down to about 15 later on.  Karen may have had a lively dating history but it was because Karen had many options available to her but also the ones she dated had many options available to them too.  And Karen and the ones she dated sorted out their options and Karen and the ones she dated pretty much had clean breaks, not that messy "he said, she said" type stuff and Karen remained friends with her ex-boyfriends.  And also, if you look at the reasonings Karen had behind her break-ups, there wasn't really a pattern there outside of that 'work' thing which is understandable as Karen always seemed to be working.  Each guy had different problems and Karen had different problems with each guy (in addition to that 'work' thing).  A two way street.  And as Karen loved baseball, three strikes and you're out.  And there was also a guy Karen met in September 1978 that was younger too (even younger than Tony).  People that knew Karen knew that Karen was head over heels for this guy but it was the age thing and also that this guy, at the time (1978-1979) wasn't a millionaire or such.  This guy (Adrian, Ace) also wasn't wanting an older woman or a celebrity either.  Later (1981), Karen and this guy saw each other again for a short while in 1981 and it was more like nukes and supernovas than the sparks and flames stuff.  Karen and this guy were planning on eloping on February 4, 1983 in Las Vegas.  This guy was Karen's 1983 "new manager" story actually.  Karen wasn't really sad or lonely for any length of time.  There were opportunities out there but Karen's biggest problem was finding a guy that was good on his word but also wanted a tomboy that enjoyed being plain and ordinary and not some glitzy show girl or a 'trophy wife' so to speak.  Karen had found that guy finally in 1978 but there was an age and a money type problem.  So, Karen noticed that almost everyone that saw Karen with this guy thought Karen was actually two years younger than this guy (even though he was younger) and in 1981, Karen ran a credit check on this guy and this guy had a credit rating of 726 whereas Thomas, her husband, had a credit rating of 136 and Thomas's son had a credit rating of 500 (636 combined).  So although not a millionaire, this guy was not a financial mess and also, Karen noted that when Karen and Richard were this guy's age that neither Karen nor Richard even had a credit score at that age.  The guy also felt that Karen being a celebrity wasn't a bad thing (but he wasn't looking to be in the media spotlight and such) and that the age difference was fine as most people didn't even notice that he was younger and thought she was younger and he was the older one.  And as those that knew Karen knew, Karen had a great half uncle named Jack Carpenter that was a very large man that didn't have a neck (so to speak).  Jack was the oldest living Carpenter male at the time and it was a custom for the Carpenter women (Karen included) to introduce their suitors to Jack for a special message from Jack.  As far as the message, remember uncle Jack was a big guy and the oldest Carpenter male at the time.  So Thomas Burris had an offer from uncle Jack to do it for free but Thomas chickened out and went to a doctor instead.  This guy that Karen met in 1978 didn't chicken out at the meeting in June 1979 and had Jack's blessings (which Jack and him met again in June 1981 and Jack still gave him his blessings) after this guy told Jack, "If I ever do something like that to your niece please use a dull, rusty butter knife as I would want it to be as painful as possible".  Karen was not much for being stuck married to some guy that was a chicken but it was what it was.  Karen made her bed and had to lie in it (which is from a movie, "Goodbye To Love" that is the least accurate thing done about Karen including this lying in your own bed supposed quote that didn't actually happen that this writer is aware of as Karen said that her mom just talked about People magazine being there and not about lying in beds or such) and Thomas and Karen both lied to each other.  Originally, Karen and Thomas thought they were the answer to each other's problems, but truth was that Karen was hoping for a family of her own with a guy who had a vasectomy and the guy who had a vasectomy thought that having money was the key to happiness (but with Thomas's lack of money handling skills it would have been the key to bankruptcy not happiness).  And on Thomas's behalf here, Thomas did sign the divorce papers and even though Karen had told Thomas "I will give you a million (but Karen didn't say a million what)" Thomas had said that he knew the million wasn't a valid offer but he signed the papers anyway for his and Karen's sakes.  Thomas also could have tried to contest Karen's Will as in a part of the Will (Second Codicil that wasn't filed publicly) there was a line where Karen had left her love to this guy she was planning on eloping with on February 4, 1983.  Thomas never contested the Will (the Second Codicil wasn't publicly filed for one part, but also, trying to say that Karen might be 'mentally unstable' because she left her love to someone in her Will or the anorexia issues even would probably only make the lawyers rich and then the estate would have gone to the lawyers instead of anyone else, Tom included.  Yes, Richard is highly intelligent and a very thoughtful person to converse with if you get the chance like I had).  And another reality is that Thomas really didn't know Karen's secrets, but with Thomas signing that suppression order against him talking publicly about Karen, Thomas was able to live his life outside 'the public eye' so to speak.  Also, after the media found out about the divorce, the media was gearing up to publicly trash Thomas and Karen and sell more papers.  Honestly, Richard did not want Karen's name getting dragged through the tabloid mud with that divorce stuff.  Richard wasn't against Thomas getting trashed, but that suppression order on Thomas was actually about keeping Karen's name from getting trashed in those papers, not Tom's name.  And that was why the suppression order on Thomas was actually a part of the divorce papers and not a part of Karen's Will.  There were no secret deals or payouts or such involved with that suppression order.  That suppression order was a part of Karen's divorce agreement and not related to Karen's Will or her brother Richard either.  It was Karen and her divorce lawyer's idea for the suppression order and not Richard's idea.  But then with tabloid messes the way they are, yeah, if you are looking to get a divorce and don't want your name splattered all over the tabloids you had better darn well get a suppression order signed.  Karen hadn't signed the divorce agreement, itself, but Thomas had signed the suppression order that was a part of that divorce agreement.  The divorce agreement wasn't legally enforceable but the suppression order was and is enforceable.  And after Karen had passed away, what could she say about the divorce anyway?  If the papers couldn't talk with Tom about it, they couldn't drag Karen's name into it and all that tabloid trash talk stuff that happens after divorces (or near divorce in this case).  So hypothetically, Thomas could have married another woman, had his vasectomy reversed, had another son and not been trashed in the tabloids over it.  Thomas can still talk privately.  Beware, however, as Thomas has had a long history of trying to stretch the truth on some things (like being a real estate tycoon while having a 136 credit rating and such for reference here).  Another side note too, the guy that Karen met in 1978 had a suppression order issued on him in 1973, so he was not allowed to talk or to be mentioned publicly either (which had nothing to do with anything Carpenters related but was related to the "Keep Christ in Christmas" and "Merry Xmas" stuff back in 1973 which was long before Karen and the guy even met).  And yet another side note here, yes, there are some people that try to walk a mile in other people's shoes but if you are going to do such a thing, please try to wash your feet beforehand because the rest of us are tired of all the crap that gets left behind in our shoes from people that really don't seem to learn anything from that experience anyway.  Just a heads up.

As far as Thomas Burris, that was pretty much over around November 1980 actually and Karen and Thomas hadn't seen each other much since around October 1981.  After October 1981, the few times that Karen saw Thomas was usually over the phone and Karen trying to get Thomas to agree on a divorce settlement.  There was not going to be a possibility for a reconciliation after October 1981.  Karen and Thomas had been sleeping in separate beds since around November 1980 I believe.  Except for functions and gatherings (and a couple holidays), Karen had been keeping physical distance from Thomas while in private and at times in public too.  There was stress from what Thomas might possibly try to pull before a divorce went through, but the stress was Karen worrying about it and not any actual event that had happened.  Karen just figured that Thomas was going to try and drag out the divorce as long as possible was Karen's main concern.  Karen gave Thomas chances to reconcile until around October 1981.  After October 1981, the only contact Karen had with Thomas was to try and get Thomas to agree to a divorce.  After an incident in November 1980, Karen had enough of the marriage but she did give Thomas a chance to 'fess up and possibly reconcile for not quite a year.  The divorce was not devastating to Karen emotionally.  Karen and Thomas's marriage had been mostly built on lies and those lies started falling apart shortly before Karen and Thomas were married.  Thomas's lies were saying he was willing to start a family while having a vasectomy while also claiming to be a real estate mogul with a credit rating of 136.  The other lie being that money is the key to happiness (as a fool with someone else's money are soon parted).  When an engagement goes from one year to three months, um, why the rush?  Repossession?  Just take that stuff as Karen didn't need it nor the mess that was attached to that stuff.  Yeah, about November 1980 and any love was gone from Karen towards that thing she married.  There were other incidents as well where it wasn't just money, but Karen did not trust Thomas at all.  Even if Thomas had his vasectomy reversed, Karen was not going to spend the rest of her life with a man that she couldn't trust.  Thomas was also not going to spend the rest of his life with a woman he couldn't trust either.  All that was left after October 1981 was the paperwork.  (And included in that divorce paperwork was a suppression order that Thomas did actually sign.  Yes, hint, that suppression order on Thomas was from the divorce and had nothing to do with Karen's Will or Richard or such.  After the divorce, Karen didn't want the papers dragging Tom's and her names through the tabloids, so suppression order to avoid that he said she said mess in the tabloids).  As far as Karen's lies, she still kept most of those hidden from Thomas.  I know that in June 1981 Thomas got a chance to realize how little Thomas actually knew about Karen as in June 1981, Karen let her step cousin Wendy B tell Thomas only a couple things that Karen had held back from Thomas.  And what Thomas was told was only a tip of that iceberg that Karen had been hiding from him but enough to drop Tom's jaw to the floor on June 18, 1981.  No, Thomas did not actually know any of Karen's real secrets.  That was why Karen led Thomas to believe that Frenda and Itchie were close friends of Karen's.  As EVERYONE knew (including Ev Wallace), Richard and mom were Karen's closest friends, hands down.  Karen's mom was still her mom but they were actually friends too.  But moms are supposed to teach their kids and be supportive, but not really 'friends' (even though Karen and her mom were actually friends too and would talk together when others weren't around, shh).  Well, almost everyone knew (except maybe Thomas and Frenda and Itchie and Phil and...).  Many times the goose is smarter than the gander.  Just another heads up from a gander.

And about the lesbian stuff here.  As Karen had told me, she thought about it and that thought was "no way".  Karen wanted a family and a woman and a woman can not start a family together.  No.  Karen was a tomboy and she always felt that women could do the same things as men (except that sex part thing) if given the chance and in some instances, better than men too, just as in some instances men can do things better than women.  Being equals for the most part but still some things men can do better while some other things women can do better.  Working together with the strengths of both men and women.  Karen was not trying to be a man but she enjoyed playing war games with a machine gun and also stuffed animals and stuff like that too.  Karen loved being athletic but also being intellectual too.  A woman thinking on her own without some man telling her what she can and can't do?  Exactly.  Karen loved being different and being her own person and was against stereotyping people including herself.  But as far as what Karen told me about the lesbian issue (Karen and I had this talk in November 1978 after Karen came in and was furious about an article about one of Karen's therapy sessions in February 1978 that appeared but was not totally accurate as usual in a tabloid paper), "I am actually glad that me and my mother didn't hug because they probably would have accused us of being what was that word again?  Thespians?" And I said, "Lezzies, um, lesbians.  Thespians are actors and actresses." And Karen was like, "Yeah, they would have probably put it all over the papers that me and my mom were lesbians.  I'm so furious over this.  How is trying to traumatize people helping them?" And I was like, "I'm going to duck now, but if you do turn lesbian can I watch?" And Karen gave me that evil look like I knew she would and said, "Not funny Adrian.  Honestly, I like guy parts, not girl parts.  I thought about it, and I could never be like that." And she smiled and then said, "Thanks, I just realized that how can I turn lesbian or whatever when I can't even bring myself to hug my own mother?" And I was like, "Yeah, you can't believe all that you read in the tabloids.  But then again, some people will believe anything or else the tabloids wouldn't be selling.  I mean honestly, your therapy sessions are supposed to be private.  Like you said, this is bad, and you're right about that, I would be furious too."  So, no, Karen was never a lesbian or ever interested in such a thing.  Karen was never "turned on" by another woman as Karen just wasn't interested in women sexually at all.  As far as fantasy stuff and like that, fans will be what fans are and so long as just a fantasy type scenario, whatever, so long as Karen didn't have to personally participate (which Karen actually participating would have never happened).  But as far as reality, honestly, Karen loved having girl parts that seemed to work best when guy parts and girl parts were joined together.  As far as the picture of Karen and Olivia together on a bed in their pajamas...  I believe that picture was taken in November 1980 when Karen and Olivia stayed at the "Hotel Dumpwater" as advertized on the Merv Griffin Show in 1981 while Matt Lattanzi and Thomas Burris I believe stayed on the boat that night.  When Karen and Olivia were growing up, they didn't really get to go to slumber parties and such like most other girls their age.  So in their 30s, Karen and Olivia had their picture taken together at their first slumber party at the Hotel Dumpwater on Catalina Island.  You know, the Hotel Dumpwater where they leave the light on for you as it helps scare the bugs away.  But that picture was special as Karen and Olivia got to share their first slumber party after turning 30+.  So no, Karen was not a lesbian and had no interest in such a thing.  And as Karen had her right to choose, Karen felt everyone else should have their right to choose as well.  And with each person having a right to choose comes that word, "consent".  As far as Karen actually being lesbian, not happening, but as far as fan fiction type stuff or whatever, Karen felt everyone should have an imagination so whatever floats your boat with your imagination.  Just remember that imagination is not reality.

And of course there is a lot of stuff being spread around that makes little to no sense as Richard and Karen had money so it was about principles with them.  The ones that keep trying to say that Richard and Karen did things for money do not know what they are talking about and it shows.  Both Karen and Richard were millionaires before their third album and didn't have to worry about money (hint even with the Thomas Burris stuff with Karen, Karen still had over a couple million dollars in stocks and bonds and property and that was in 1981).  So why are people trying to accuse Richard and Karen about doing things for money when they already had enough money?  Yes consider the source and realize that the ones trying to accuse are the actual ones 'doing it for money' as they don't appear to have that much money themselves.  It's a process known as 'projecting' where the one doing things creates a smoke screen around themselves by trying to accuse others of stuff they are guilty of.  The truth was and has always been that Karen and Richard did things based on their principles and not for the money.  A recording contract is to make records for the company and the company and the artists make money from those recordings.  As far as Karen and Richard, principles and not about the money.  Once you understand the principle of projecting by scapegoating others, it should start becoming more apparent that if things are not making sense then chances are someone is making up stories and trying to cover their own tracks while trying to scapegoat others to try and make people think that everyone does those kind of things instead of just them doing that kind of stuff.  I have not seen anything by Richard or his mom yet that has yet not made sense.  Others, ho boy, have you got a couple decades while I try to explain that one (your jaw would drop too if you found out that your future wife had chosen her Maid of Honor based on her feeling that her Maid of Honor was being about as trustworthy as her future husband, and also, to be fair here, Frenda had also put in a lot of work as far as arranging Karen's wedding so it was earned but also it was just odd to Karen that it worked out that she trusted her husband about as much as her Maid of Honor as far as telling secrets and such)...

Why would someone need to state that they were "best friends" or such with someone?  Shouldn't something like that be obvious with what is or isn't being said from the individual?  Richard and Karen were 'best friends' and as Richard has said that Karen and Olivia were 'good friends' (http://www.richardandkarencarpenter.com in the 'Fans Ask' former Carpenters forum section, awesome read there and that whole site is very accurate, highly recommended). And oh my the used toilet paper that gets generated from newspapers, magazines, books and movies that state how a grand and glorious (and an apparently blatantly egomaniacal) producer that has won one Grammy Award (actually he won four at the time but the writers only say that Phil won a Grammy in these stories) is going to step in and save the careers of a lady, who with her brother, have already won three awards.  Oops, shoot, don't mention that three Grammy Awards thing, shh, it'll wreck the story here from the fiction writers.  That is just plain absurd.  Brooklyn Bridge?  Heck if you believe this stuff can I interest you in buying the Moon?  Really?  Yes, used toilet paper.  What else can crap stories like that generate?

And for hanging in there and reading this, something about being objective about stuff that is subjective...  I knew what to expect from the internet as like with the real world since when has an honest person ever been liked?  A guy got nailed to a cross around 2000 years ago for being honest and it hasn't changed much before or since then.  OK, an exception as Karen Carpenter was liked, but however the image others are trying to make about Karen isn't very honest and I have been noticing (like others) how that false image appears to be more liked by some than Karen, herself, which I feel is a shame really as Karen really was a wonderful person.  Yes, Karen had anorexia, Karen believed in empathy and not sympathy, but no Karen never felt unloved nor bullied nor controlled by her family, no Karen was not looking to ever leave the Carpenters, no Karen wasn't mixed-up or confused, yes those trying to say that Karen was mixed-up or confused are usually the ones that are mixed-up or confused themselves, yes speaking of mixed-up and confused it was a mess for therapy for Karen as Karen's family was the ones suggesting the therapy and the therapists kept trying to insist that Karen's family didn't care about Karen (yes for some reason this is actually confusing as how could someone that is urging someone else to get help from others be considered uncaring?), true that any rumors about Karen planning on leaving the Carpenters are completely false and unsubstantiated, yes I thought it was obvious too that since Karen did do a solo album without leaving the Carpenters that Karen didn't have to leave the Carpenters to make a solo album and also obvious that Karen was not planning on leaving the Carpneters or else why did Karen shelve her solo album and then work on Made In America just after her solo album was shelved, yes Karen's solo album was released in 1996 by A&M Records which if Karen had actually (instead of false rumors) been planning on leaving the Carpenters it would have been released on another label back in 1980 and would have never been partially funded by A&M Records to begin with, yes there was an extra hundred grand spent for Karen's solo album that was financed through future Carpenter (not just Karen) royalties at A&M, yes Karen was the one who shelved her solo album (as if Karen hadn't shelved it Herb Alpert, Jerry Moss, Jerry Weintraub and Phil Ramone would have released it and it was in Karen's name so Richard and Agnes couldn't do anything about it if Karen had decided to release it, which as Karen said to me on June 12, 1981, "Releasing that album would have been the biggest mistake of my career as my recording contract had an image clause in it and that album could have definitely jeopardized my contract with A&M because of all that sexual content stuff Phil  had me do.  That album would have probably wrecked my image and my career.  I love being the girl next door.  I'm a romantic at heart as you know.  I don't want to change that and I'm not looking to be seen as another sleaze bucket.  There's enough of those out there as it is and I'm not looking to be just one more notch in some slime ball's belt."  Side note also, I don't know for sure but I also have a feeling that Agnes never knew about that solo album but I don't ever remember Karen saying that for sure to me.  I know when Karen, Agnes and me talked over the phone in late March or early April 1979 that Karen's mom didn't know about Karen doing a solo album, just that Richard and Karen had a disagreement about 'whatever' and that Karen should do 'whatever' so that Richard could spend time with Mary Rudolph and maybe get the pitter patter of little feet around the house), Rob Hoerburger, really, if Richard apparently owned Karen's voice then how was Karen able to do a solo album with Phil Ramone and (is that New York Times article from 1996 ever off its rocker and out of control from reality, robtimes.html .  Yoohoo, Rob, you were writing an article about Karen doing a solo album WITHOUT her brother, duh)..., yes Karen was against women being seen as just 'sex objects' (and the writer of this page is also against that thought as well), yes if someone doesn't want to sing they don't have to sing so it makes no sense at all about forcing someone to sing (note, a cattle prod would make for some odd notes and holding a gun on someone might work if you want that person to sound nervous but would make for an odd recording on love songs and such), yes Karen was a millionaire and did not have to live at home but she liked it there with her mom dad and brother, yes Mary Rudolph was an adopted cousin and not an actual blood first cousin (Kristi and Mindi look like their dad and Traci and Taylor look like their mom and it is fairly noticable plus pictures of Mark and Mary Rudolph as Mary has blonde hair and the Rudolphs had darker hair and... yes Karen actually told me the story about knowing that she knew that Mary was adopted which might hopefully shed some light as to why she didn't tell others as others seem to like making up stories about people rather than asking about things, hint, hint, Thomas Burris, Nicky Chinn, Levenkron, Cherry Boone, Frenda, Phil and Itchie to name a few.  On the other side were ones like her mom, her dad, Richard, Dionne Warwick, Olivia Newton-John, Grand ma ma Rudolph, Mary and Mark Rudolph, step cousin Wendy B, Frenda's mom and myself to name a few too.  Outer circle, inner circle, and the middle of the three-ring circus of Karen's friends with ones like Petula Clark, Debby Boone, Pat and Shirley Boone and several others that Karen didn't get a chance to see that often but Karen only ever felt she had friends during her three-ring circus of life.  Karen always believed in forgiveness and Karen never gave in to hate so she never felt she had any enemies, just friends.  Karen also wasn't stupid either so, no, those that were in her middle and outer circles weren't told any of Karen's actual secrets), yes Karen was asked to contribute something to Cherry Boone's book and the fact that Karen didn't contribute anything to that book should tell people that Karen didn't want to be involved in that mess as Karen was a friend of Pat Shirley and Debby Boone, (like the choice of Karen avoiding being associated with Cherry's trashy type book as Karen liked having a three-ring circus of friends and trash would just litter up the place so if worst had come to worst then Cherry  wouldn't be a friend at all and Karen wouldn't bother with Cherry at all but not an enemy or such, but a nobody, doesn't exist, as in how can you hate something or someone that doesn't exist - and a note here as the writer is not aware of anyone actually being on Karen's "does not exist" list so like said Karen had a three-ring circus of friends), Karen understood about Bette Midler not wanting the media to think of Bette as a 'goody two shoes' and all that publicity mess that goes with that image, Karen never had any bad feelings towards Bette and like most people Karen knew - Bette was in Karen's middle ring/circle, yes if Karen told someone a secret and they kept that secret then they were in Karen's inner circle of friends but if they told that secret then they got moved to the outer circle, yes at the center of Karen's three-ring circus was a word called "trust", there was not any incest between Richard and Karen, true Richard and Agnes Carpenter are not narcissists, no Richard and Agnes Carpenter aren't lying about Karen, yes phonies want you to believe that Richard and Agnes are liars despite when has a phoney ever been honest, true that those trying to accuse Richard and Agnes of being narcissists or liars are most likely narcissists and liars themselves (phonies live in a fantasy world that always revolves around them and their minions [flying monkeys, henchmen/henchwomen, whatever].  Where are Agnes and Richard's minions?  They don't have any?  That's odd.  All phonies [narcissists, know-it-alls, braggarts] always have to have minions to justify themselves when they attack others like the Randy L Schmidt Minions and the Rick Henry Minions and the Goodbye To Love Crockumentary Minions and the Psychobabble Minions as well), yes many have been putting words and ideas on Karen that Karen never had, yes Karen didn't blame others for her problems as that would be against her (and my) INFJ-A MBI personality type, yes Karen rarely had arguments with her mom or her brother, yes Karen did feel like her mom was being overprotective of her and Richard at times, no Karen never felt controlled by her family but Karen had felt controlled by others (Phil and Itchie Ramone, Steven Levenkron, Thomas Burris, Nicky Chinn, Max Baer Jr., most therapists and probably a few others I am forgetting here) any more questions?  Another answer then, yes, all people are entitled to their own opinions.  Are your opinions objective or subjective?  Yes, all opinions are subjective unless they have objective information to back them up.  Yes, information (matter of fact, objective), not misinformation (oops) nor opinions (subjective) nor second guessing nor mind reading nor assuming (opinion / subjective).

As far as Karen, herself...  Here's a secret for you.  Watch the TV show "Who's the Boss?" and watch for the character Mona (Angela's mom).  That is the closest I have ever seen to anyone actually portraying what Karen was like in real life (in a round about way as Mona is actually a fictional character but thanks to Tony Danza and a few suggestions, definitely loosely based on Karen Carpenter as the Mona character has mostly the same quirks about her that Karen had.  I am my own woman.  The funny wit.  That ability to cut through nonsense but also be sincere.  The advice.  And so on).  Katherine Helmond is probably the actress that has portrayed the best Karen Carpenter so far in my opinion (without realizing it).

And honestly, all books and films and such about Karen Carpenter all have something that is not accurate in them, just some way more inaccurate than others.  Hence the idea for the "Karen's Last Days" page and this "Rant And Rave" page as well.  Well, actually after reading, not much to rave about out there.  A lot of ranting and raging though.

With that in mind about books and films, people have been asking, "You say something is wrong, but what is wrong with..."

So...

"Carpenters: The Untold Story" book by Ray Coleman (1994, first edition) untoldstory94.html .

"Little Girl Blue: The Life of Karen Carpenter" book by Randy L Schmidt (2012) littlegirlblue.html .

"Karen Carpenter's Second Life" article by Rob Hoerburger, New York Times, October 6, 1996 (1996) robtimes.html .

"The Karen Carpenter Story" movie (1989) karencarpstory.html .

"Goodbye To Love" film (2016) goodbyetolovecrock.html .

Which, if you read this Rant and Rave page and the Karen's Last Days page here, you should have a good understanding about what is wrong with those films, books, articles and movies already.  Those pages are just a little more detailed and specific is all.

Changed to a short blurb here, but before 1978 Karen was having the thought that "all little girls are attractive and straight as a board".  After 1979, Karen started thinking of being thin as being undesirable and not attractive.  Karen's thoughts had changed from 1978 to 1979.  The reasons that Karen had for losing weight before 1978 were different after 1979.  The 4 hour rule with sleeping and performing was still there.  Karen's rationale for losing weight had reversed (1978, thin = attractive / 1979, thin = not attractive) but she still lost weight after the thought reversal.  But why?  Well, 1978 and before Karen had been thinking that she needed to be thin and desirable to catch the right guy when he came along.  The problem was that Karen caught the wrong guy in 1980 and was around another wrong guy in 1982 and didn't wish to be desirable anymore.  Honestly, this had nothing to do with control issues.  If they had actually talked with Karen instead of assuming stuff...  But alas, they didn't and they now make up stuff to try and justify themselves as being the know-it-alls they believe themselves to be.

Also, lately (November 23, 2021 and later) I have been rereading "Carpenters - The Untold Story" and I still strongly recommend this book but with some reserves as it is full of personal information for those interested in that kind of thing.  A couple things that have struck me lately was one part where it talks about Karen and Levenkron.  Take a note here, Karen was the kind of person where if someone accused her of something, Karen was not going to be falsely accused.  So as far as the Levenkron part in this book, understand that in the beginning (like with several other therapists before), Levenkron had accused Karen of being a liar (even though he does not say this in the book that I have seen, I can tell it had happened by Levenkron's talking about his and Karen's discussions somewhat).  With that being said, Karen had told me during our phone call on February 3, 1983 that she had lied to Levenkron and others during her stay there (Karen's words were "if you hear something about me that doesn't sound true from someone in the Looney Bin, it isn't") and it shows in the book to me.  Another part that caught my eye too was the talk of people discussing Karen during January 1983 (Beverly and Florine and such) and Karen talking about her heart beating very fast.  Also talk about Karen and medications and Butalbital which is a medicine for intestinal problems and was mentioned on Karen's full autopsy report (the 25 pager with the toxicology report).  But the big thing that strikes me is that there is some stuff that isn't quite accurate in these sections, so best to be cautious with this stuff.  It is nice to have it written down, but at times some of the explanations (like with the differing opinions between Levenkron and Dr. Yager and such) are a bit off.  Like this page, opinions are just that, opinions.  And several opinions mentioned in this book do not have any facts to back them up (especially about anorexia).  And as far as Richard's commentary about the anorexia profile stuff (Dr. Crisp?), um, take what Richard says to heart there.  When Richard disagrees, there is actually a ton of information that backs up Richard's disagreement and nothing to back up that anorexia profile matching Karen.  Also note, there is nothing directly from Karen by any therapist or such (outside Levenkron which I mentioned earlier with the "levenkron called Karen a liar" stuff) and so remember, they never asked Karen if any of that anorexic profile stuff was accurate or not as in from my own experiences with Karen, that stuff is not accurate and has no direct correlation with Karen or her situation which was why none of the therapists that discussed anything had any input from Karen, herself, about that stuff.  Also, from my talking directly with Karen, Karen had even told me that the therapists and such didn't actually talk with Karen and almost all of them made assumptions and assertions that were not true (like Karen and Richard competing with each other, they didn't actually compete with each other and always worked together with each other.  Also, Karen never wished to be 'the favorite' and if they had ever actually talked with her, they would have known why Karen never wished to be a favorite - letting ducks wander, round pegs in square holes, etc.).  Reader beware.  And that helps demonstrate the problem with talking about someone that has passed away.  Speculation is just that, speculation and an opinion which ALL opinions are subjective.  All facts are objective (not subjective).  It is the information (objectivity or subjectivity) that makes or breaks the opinion (subjectivity), not the opinion itself.  Unfortunately, many that read this book do not understand the difference between what is subjective and what is objective.  This book does demonstrate why it is futile to try and second guess someone that has passed away, as only the one that has passed away is the one that has the objective answer.  All opinions are just that, opinions, and subjective, not objective.

And a short piece here (kind of, anyway)...  Yes, almost all of Karen's therapy was a mess or disaster.  Karen did have two that she had good experiences with.  The first one is a lady who was actually still studying to be a psychiatrist / psychologist at the time and went by her first name as her last name was difficult for people to pronounce.  The other was a guy that was actually my fourth grade teacher.  Her past life therapist was the kind of indifferent one.  The past life stuff was interesting in some aspects, but not really anything good or bad, just different.  Both of these people (as one wasn't licensed yet, shh) listened to Karen and, unlike others, did not put words or thoughts in Karen's head that weren't actually there to begin with.  For the most part, however, the therapy and such for Karen (and still for many others) was, is and will continue to be a disaster and a mess.  You can't honestly help someone without being honest.  Those that try and put words and thoughts in people's heads that are not actually the words and thoughts of those people are what are known as 'brainwashers'.  In the time I knew Karen, I knew Karen to think of her family as her crutch (support) and Karen knew her family cared about her and tried to support her.  But Karen also loved being independent and in the time I knew Karen, I only ever knew Karen's family to be supportive of Karen and also allow Karen her space if she wanted it.  I have never known actual 'controlling' type people to ever allow someone to have their own thoughts and ideas.  I have only known supportive type people to allow others to have their own thoughts and ideas.  We are all entitled to our opinions.  But are those opinions based on reality or assumptions and assertions and mind reading and such?  Yes, the difference between objective (matter of fact) and subjective (opinionated, assumptive and such).  With this page I am trying to be as objective as possible, but without Karen around to actually have direct input, I'm doing what I can to stay as objective as possible with this.  Non fiction is objective.  Fiction is subjective and as I say to those that try to push the subjective stuff over objective, "File it in your fiction library between 'butt' and 'cheeks' for when the need may arise."  Yes, a toilet paper shortage can be overcome through having a stocked fiction library that some try to pass off as being non fiction.  And, it is a long story that I am going to try and shorten here but I try to refer to this as the "Max stuff".  Originally Karen had been telling her 'story' to me of "my family wants me to come home" instead of the truth of "Max is just too controlling for me to deal with."  So I can't ever say that Karen never said that her family was controlling.  However, I can say that Karen didn't truly think her family was controlling her, but it made a convenient excuse for Karen so that Karen didn't have to talk to others about her control problems that she was having with Max (and others).  Karen would use the "my family is controlling" excuse to avoid being confrontational with those she felt might be trying to control her.  Blame shifting.  Avoidance.  Myself, personally, I never saw a time when Karen's family actually controlled Karen as while Karen was saying her family was being controlling in 1979, her family was not even around her.  And that was when Karen and I realized, together, that probably the biggest sign of someone controlling someone or someone being controlled is a lack of honesty and the lack of being allowed to have a different opinion or any freedom.  That was why Karen always saw her family as her crutch, so to speak.  Crutches are what help to support you instead of feeding you to the sharks or the lions or putting you in front of a firing squad or such.  After getting to know Karen, I found out Karen always felt comfortable around her family, but never felt comfortable around those she felt were trying to control her.  And not mentioned below, but mentioned now here, when I felt Karen was trying to hide something from me (after the Max incident in mid May 1979) I would say to Karen "OK, what did your family do now?" when I felt Karen was trying to hide something from me.  As Karen and I would say to each other sometimes, "I agree to disagree".  But as far as the therapy and such, it just starts being one big complicated mess as you have probably noticed already.

And yes, we all can make mistakes, myself included.  A while back on YouTube someone had told me that Richard had said that "they stole the Carpenters' sound for Karen's solo album" or something like that.  I then said that I never heard that and didn't believe it existed as Karen had told me that Richard had said "it sounds like sh*t".  I do stand corrected as before and recently now as well Richard has said that he had said that he felt that they had stolen "the Carpenters' sound" on Karen's solo album.  Richard has also clarified that statement as well as Richard has said that he was referring to the layers of harmonies.  And as always with a correction, something new to ponder.  Rod Temperton had worked before with layered harmonies while being with the group Heatwave (the song Boogie Nights as an example here).  The thought I have is that I don't know if it was just Rod Temperton or if maybe Karen may have given Rod extra insight into layering harmonies to produce a lusher and fuller background vocal.  The two that would know if it was just Rod or if Karen had given Rod pointers were Rod and Karen who have both passed away.  I just can't be sure if it was all Rod for the background vocals or if Karen helped Rod.  As such, only Rod and Karen would know for sure if the Carpenters sound was actually stolen or not.  But also not totally sure if maybe Rusty, Lib or Grimey might have insight on this as well.  For sure, I don't know and I never asked and Karen never mentioned anything directly to me about this that I can remember.

And another note here.  The procedure at Lennox Hill Hospital is at least partly responsible for Karen passing away.  Can not for sure determine if it was the procedure itself or because of the accident with the lung puncture or a possible combination of both.  Because of Karen's glucol (blood sugar) level going through the roof, 100% the Lennox Hill procedure is at least partly responsible.  Outside of that, Karen did also have hepatitis from a tattoo being removed (needle marks in her groin area) as well as her ongoing arrhythmia problem (a birth defect).  Other stuff possibly contributed, but the problem (hyperglycemia) that caused Karen to pass away is definitely related to the Lennox Hill procedure in one form or another.  And the Lennox Hill procedure was done because Karen had colitis and with the colitis, Karen had been having problems with digesting solid food.  Kind of a catch 22 there.  The Lennox Hill procedure is the ONLY thing that can't be possibly ruled out in all of this.  But also, the Lennox Hill procedure is not the only health problem here, so although it can't be ruled out, it is not the only possible cause of Karen's blood sugar suddenly going through the roof.

And with that, just because bad things happen doesn't make a person 'bad'.  Many times, someone just hasn't been taught or doesn't know any better.  As is said, "Judge not others lest ye be judged".  And something to think about while this thing called life is happening, how heavenly would Heaven be with a bunch of individuals that fought and argued all the time?  Yes, it is OK to disagree as disagreeing just means a difference of opinion is all and is normally not related to good and bad.  Yes, disagreements are all subjective but unlike Heaven, we don't have an eternity during life to sort all this mess out.  And as far as judgement, we are held accountable for what we do and how we behave and treat others just as others are judged on how they behave and treat us.  And yes, Karen was one who "practiced what she preached".  And really, blaming people never solves any problems.  Identifying what the problem is and why it a problem is what helps solve problems.  Proven fact.

And as far as blame...  Anorexia was Karen's problem.  Others tried to help as best as they could but if Karen had not had her problems then there wouldn't be this overly long web page here.  Karen was the ultimate blame here.  With that, Karen was the answer to her own problems.  People could try and help as much as possible, but until Karen learned to help herself and get over her problems, the problems would be there.  What was the cause of those problems?  According to my talks with Karen, image.  Not control.  Not attention.  Image.  As I mentioned just shortly above (yes, a setup by the author here) Karen originally had the image that thin was attractive (to both the masses and to a future partner).  After other experiences, Karen's thought about being attractive had changed and she had started thinking that being too thin was unattractive from personal experiences.  You would think that the thought reversal would correct the problem.  The tough part was that she had met a guy and married him and then realized that the guy she actually married was not the guy she thought she married.  So after that (around late 1980) Karen wanted to be unattractive (thin) again.  Karen's fault here.  Karen was the one who thought this way.  It wasn't 'control' or forced on her or even subliminal or such, but it was all Karen.  Then Karen went chasing after (sowing her wild oats) a guy that had wrote a book she loved (The Best Little Girl in the World) and then found out this author was nothing like his book would suggest.  Karen wished to be undesirable and unattractive which at this time in her life, meant being thin.  So more problems.  Karen had gained some weight for a short while at Levenkron's clinic (89 pounds?) but then lost it again when she realized that the image she had of Levenkron was not actually Levenkron, himself.  Karen's problem.  But yes, this all comes back to Karen.  The same as anyone that has a problem (Richard included) that the problem comes back to the person who has the problem (like an addiction to quaaludes, which unlike Richard, Agnes [mom] did not become addicted).  Myself included as well (length problem?).  We can't change others, only ourselves.  We can set examples for others to follow however, both good and bad.  Guidance.  As far as my length problem, OK, you got me there.  I'm working on it.  Kind of anyway.  This wasn't because the moon was in the seventh house.  And blaming others because someone else has a problem is not a good sign either (unless looking for a sign of immaturity and a lack of responsibility).  And objectively as the answer to Richard's problem was with Richard, himself, and the answer(s?) to Karen's problems rest with Karen, herself.

And near the conclusion here, can you see the difference between someone compiling information and someone writing a story?  In a story (fiction), all the pieces have to match and fit the story being told.  If a piece doesn't match then preferably deny it or don't mention it as it will wreck the story.  First, Karen's solo album was rejected (by Karen herself and others stood behind her - Richard, Alpert, Moss, Phil Ramone).  Karen rejected it and it is in Phil Ramone's writing in the credits for the solo album.  Phil stated that "IT WAS INCONCEIVABLE to those of us involved with the project that a rumor might spread regarding the end of the Carpenters.  That truly was beyond the realm of possibility; Karen loved Richard and the music they made together." and in the next paragraph, "Karen and the rest of us who worked on this project understood the decision to wait on the release."  And after the album was released in 1996, what happened?  Exactly.  False rumors.  Twisted tales (stories).  Yes, a lot of nonsense.  Read the two quotes again and do you see that word "Karen"?  Yes, Karen.  So quick, everyone buy the mp3s and don't read the liner notes for that solo album.  Hide it.  No one will know just like that "Karen was chubby" article in Billboard magazine.  Honest, if there had been such a thing then Billboard magazine would have attempted to apologize or such under the circumstances, but how can you apologize for an article that doesn't actually exist?  And how was Itchie Ramone and Frenda Franklin both able to be around Karen Carpenter during Karen's last months when Itchie was pregnant with her and Phil's first son and Phil did not allow Itchie to travel while being pregnant (note, Phil and Itchie were not at Karen's funeral because...  not in person but called Karen about wanting Karen to be a godmother on February 2, 1983)?  Karen and Frenda were on the west coast and Itchie was on the east coast during 1983, so why does it sound wrong when a book seems to make you think that Itchie and Frenda were together with Karen during 1983?  And so much more (anorexic profile, etc).  Yeah, sweep it under the rug.  I know it's a 15 mile high mountain under a four foot by six foot rug, but keep sweeping anyway as no one will notice the rug we keep sweeping this stuff under.  Sight unseen.  Thanks.  Psst, really, um, don't mention it; pretty please with sugar on top.  People have forgot about the rug and all they see is the mountain we created now.  Isn't it a grand and glorious mountain (of hogwash, poppycock, nonsense and BS.  Psst, yeah, put it in parentheses so that no one notices what the mountain is made of)?

And as far as information...  It was (until I believe March? 2021 when I mentioned it publicly) a family secret about where Karen's middle name, Anne, came from.  Objectively, Karen's middle name, Anne, came from her parents.  Karen was conceived in a Nash automobile in 1949.  Karen's great-great grandmother on her father's side was Thomas Carpenter's mother, Sarah Anne (Nash) Carpenter.  So Karen was given the middle name, Anne, after she was born.  But why would something objective be on a subjective page?  Well, objectively (like so much else on this page), what does the origin of Karen's middle name have to do with the subject of why Karen passed away?  But also, how would someone that hadn't actually talked with Karen know such a thing that hadn't been made public?  Yes, this is the actual Adrian, Karen's new manager, writing this (or as Bruce Forsyth might say in December 1978, "the sound is Ace" which Ace is my nickname that Karen asked Bruce to say on the show).

And as far as Karen, herself, Karen would not want anyone hating anyone or blaming anyone for anything let alone Karen's passing away.  Let's be honest.  We all make mistakes.  And those that knew Karen well enough knew that Karen was one that was always for forgiveness of others and against anger and hatred.

After compiling this stuff I learned that it takes a lot of sensationalism and a tremendous amount of lack of detail to create tabloid fodder for the masses.  And after writing this and for those that read this, objectively, I really don't see what most of this subjective stuff has to do with Karen's passing away either.  Hey, did you try this web page yet?  karenlastdays.html .